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Not sure how "TNT, or trinitrotoluene, is a mixture of the seemingly innocent elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen" made it past the editor. TNT is a

Not sure how "TNT, or trinitrotoluene, is a mixture of the seemingly innocent elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen" made it past the editor. TNT is a compound, not a mixture. And nitrogen isn't innocent, it's notorious for being in tons of explosives.

mathw 8y ago
However, most people's encounters with nitrogen on a day-to-day basis involve the more or less inert nitrogen molecules making up the vast majority of the Earth's atmosphere, so it is seemingly innocent unless you know about how when you start compounding it with other things it gets all excited.
- DiabloD3 8y ago
  Or you are old enough to remember the first WTC terrorist attack in the 90s where they had a van full of nitrogen fertilizer.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Nitrogen goes boom, like the most basic bomb is fuel/oil+fertilizer this should be pretty common knowledge especially considering how common were fertilizer bombs in the US.
  - afarrell 8y ago
    > the most basic bomb is fuel/oil+fertilizer this should be pretty common knowledge especially considering how common were fertilizer bombs in the US. In what context would more than 40% of Americans, people who grew up in a society were "and now I'm on a list" is a common phrase, have learned about the means of manufacturing bombs? What percentage of people do you think have even heard of Fritz Haber?
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      By being exposed to the news? https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fertilizer+bomb&num=100&newwindow=1&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fertilizer+bomb&num=100&ne... And add to that the plethora of TV shoes and movies that specifically use "fertilizer bombs" as plot devices.
      - eganist 8y ago
        Most people 1) wouldn't google that, and 2) wouldn't immediately connect fertilizer to nitrogen or realize from the phrase that nitrogen is one of the key components.
        dogma1138 8y ago
        People don’t need to google it was just to show that fertilizer bomb is a common phrase on the news you can also add nitrogen and bombs and get the same results. News, movies and tv shows covered nitrogen and fertilizer bombs extensively since essentially all the bomb related terrorist attacks in the US used these. And again this isn’t about most people this is about a columnist for Popular Mechanics and pop-sci publication they should know better and if they don’t they at least should do research.
        pwg 8y ago
        Except that the news always covers it as a "fertilizer bomb" or "fuel oil and fertilizer bomb" without ever going into the details that nitrogen is one of the elements that has a significant play in the explosiveness of the "fertilizer bomb". And the vast majority of those watching/reading the news, and seeing "fertilizer bomb" as the "name" are not chemists and have zero chemistry background, and therefore are not at all equipped to make the connection that it is the nitrogen in the fertilizer that provides much of the explosive punch of the "fertilizer bomb". At best all they will ever learn is that "fuel oil and fertilizer" can be used to make a bomb, without ever understanding why this combination is explosive.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      How about the context of watching the nightly news where it's common to add that the explosion was a home made fertiliser bomb to a report of some amateur terrorist? No need of knowing any additional process, or if there even is any, or have heard of Fritz Haber and his discoveries. Or just watching a whole selection of Hollywood movies where sacks labelled "fertiliser" are loaded into the van along with an LED alarm clock and detonator. :)
      - eganist 8y ago
        This still assumes most people are aware of nitrogen's role in fertilizer, ammonia (possibly), etc.
flukus 8y ago
> And nitrogen isn't innocent, it's notorious for being in tons of explosives. It makes up ~80% of the atmosphere, it's easy to forgive someone for being unaware of it's explosive potential. > TNT is a compound, not a mixture This is at best just needlessly pedantic. In this instance being correct would probably lead to more people not understanding the article.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Maybe that person shouldn’t write for popular mechanics then? This isn’t about Joe Average this is about someone who’s their job is to do research and write compelling stories. And there is nothing pedantic about mixture vs compound a compound has chemical bonds which is what allows the explosion to occur as the breakage of those bonds is what releases the energy. And as far as explosives go then a mixture again has a very specific meaning it means that there is an external oxidizer or a secondary explosive involved which changes the characteristics of the explosives considerably.
- Jedd 8y ago
  > This is at best just needlessly pedantic. I disagree. An article with chemical formulae, discussing melting vs combustion temperatures, ratios of elements within the compound correlating to explosive effects... and they muddle mixture with compound - this is needlessly lax terminology choice. I don't think the number of 'people not understanding the article' would decrease if they'd used the right word there.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  Yeah until i read up on explosives (and other lively substances, hello Derek Lowe) my impression of nitrogen was that of it being the most benign of atmospheric chemicals. As i have come to understand it, nitrogen gets real frisky when you pair it up with others that can't fill all its electron bonds. This then leaves it a hair breath away from going back to pure nitrogen bonds, releasing a whole lot of pent up energy in the process.
  - pwg 8y ago
    Yes, this is why nitrogen is a component of most explosives. While it will form compounds it forms unstable compounds that easily come apart. And that separation of the chemical bonds with nitrogen is what provides the immense energy release that makes for an explosion.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
I don’t think your second criticism is fair. Air is mostly nitrogen. Alone it is innocuous. The fact that it becomes dangerous when processed with other elements is the whole point of the sentence. Your criticism boils down to: “I already knew that.”
- danbruc 8y ago
  Air is mostly nitrogen. Alone it is innocuous. But only because in air nitrogen has already formed molecules of two nitrogen atom. I would guess, it would not be a pleasant experience to be exposed to atomic nitrogen if this were possible. This contrast between nitrogen gas and other substances containing nitrogen atoms really makes no sense, there is just no relationship between the properties of elements and the properties of compound containing those elements, at the very least not in general. The fact that it becomes dangerous when processed with other elements is the whole point of the sentence. TNT is not directly made from nitrogen but from toluene and nitric acid which are both not innocuous and the later is unlike nitrogen gas and TNT. But it boils down to the point from before, in chemistry it makes not really sense to relate the properties of what goes into a reaction and what comes out. It might cause just minor changes in the properties but it might also change the character completely. And you can also arrive at the same compound via different routes involving different precursors with different properties. Arbitrarily picking some and comparing them to the product is not meaningful most of the time.
- pytyper2 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
pixl97 8y ago
Why all the hate nitrogen? Oxygen, that stuff is dangerous.
- kurthr 8y ago
  Yes, FOOF! http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/thi...

mathw 8y ago

However, most people's encounters with nitrogen on a day-to-day basis involve the more or less inert nitrogen molecules making up the vast majority of the Earth's atmosphere, so it is seemingly innocent unless you know about how when you start compounding it with other things it gets all excited.

DiabloD3 8y ago
Or you are old enough to remember the first WTC terrorist attack in the 90s where they had a van full of nitrogen fertilizer.
dogma1138 8y ago
Nitrogen goes boom, like the most basic bomb is fuel/oil+fertilizer this should be pretty common knowledge especially considering how common were fertilizer bombs in the US.
- afarrell 8y ago
  > the most basic bomb is fuel/oil+fertilizer this should be pretty common knowledge especially considering how common were fertilizer bombs in the US. In what context would more than 40% of Americans, people who grew up in a society were "and now I'm on a list" is a common phrase, have learned about the means of manufacturing bombs? What percentage of people do you think have even heard of Fritz Haber?
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    By being exposed to the news? https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fertilizer+bomb&num=100&newwindow=1&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fertilizer+bomb&num=100&ne... And add to that the plethora of TV shoes and movies that specifically use "fertilizer bombs" as plot devices.
    - eganist 8y ago
      Most people 1) wouldn't google that, and 2) wouldn't immediately connect fertilizer to nitrogen or realize from the phrase that nitrogen is one of the key components.
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        People don’t need to google it was just to show that fertilizer bomb is a common phrase on the news you can also add nitrogen and bombs and get the same results. News, movies and tv shows covered nitrogen and fertilizer bombs extensively since essentially all the bomb related terrorist attacks in the US used these. And again this isn’t about most people this is about a columnist for Popular Mechanics and pop-sci publication they should know better and if they don’t they at least should do research.
        pwg 8y ago
        Except that the news always covers it as a "fertilizer bomb" or "fuel oil and fertilizer bomb" without ever going into the details that nitrogen is one of the elements that has a significant play in the explosiveness of the "fertilizer bomb". And the vast majority of those watching/reading the news, and seeing "fertilizer bomb" as the "name" are not chemists and have zero chemistry background, and therefore are not at all equipped to make the connection that it is the nitrogen in the fertilizer that provides much of the explosive punch of the "fertilizer bomb". At best all they will ever learn is that "fuel oil and fertilizer" can be used to make a bomb, without ever understanding why this combination is explosive.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    How about the context of watching the nightly news where it's common to add that the explosion was a home made fertiliser bomb to a report of some amateur terrorist? No need of knowing any additional process, or if there even is any, or have heard of Fritz Haber and his discoveries. Or just watching a whole selection of Hollywood movies where sacks labelled "fertiliser" are loaded into the van along with an LED alarm clock and detonator. :)
    - eganist 8y ago
      This still assumes most people are aware of nitrogen's role in fertilizer, ammonia (possibly), etc.

flukus 8y ago

> And nitrogen isn't innocent, it's notorious for being in tons of explosives. It makes up ~80% of the atmosphere, it's easy to forgive someone for being unaware of it's explosive potential. > TNT is a compound, not a mixture This is at best just needlessly pedantic. In this instance being correct would probably lead to more people not understanding the article.

dogma1138 8y ago
Maybe that person shouldn’t write for popular mechanics then? This isn’t about Joe Average this is about someone who’s their job is to do research and write compelling stories. And there is nothing pedantic about mixture vs compound a compound has chemical bonds which is what allows the explosion to occur as the breakage of those bonds is what releases the energy. And as far as explosives go then a mixture again has a very specific meaning it means that there is an external oxidizer or a secondary explosive involved which changes the characteristics of the explosives considerably.
Jedd 8y ago
> This is at best just needlessly pedantic. I disagree. An article with chemical formulae, discussing melting vs combustion temperatures, ratios of elements within the compound correlating to explosive effects... and they muddle mixture with compound - this is needlessly lax terminology choice. I don't think the number of 'people not understanding the article' would decrease if they'd used the right word there.
digi_owl 8y ago
Yeah until i read up on explosives (and other lively substances, hello Derek Lowe) my impression of nitrogen was that of it being the most benign of atmospheric chemicals. As i have come to understand it, nitrogen gets real frisky when you pair it up with others that can't fill all its electron bonds. This then leaves it a hair breath away from going back to pure nitrogen bonds, releasing a whole lot of pent up energy in the process.
- pwg 8y ago
  Yes, this is why nitrogen is a component of most explosives. While it will form compounds it forms unstable compounds that easily come apart. And that separation of the chemical bonds with nitrogen is what provides the immense energy release that makes for an explosion.

erikpukinskis 8y ago

I don’t think your second criticism is fair. Air is mostly nitrogen. Alone it is innocuous. The fact that it becomes dangerous when processed with other elements is the whole point of the sentence. Your criticism boils down to: “I already knew that.”

danbruc 8y ago
Air is mostly nitrogen. Alone it is innocuous. But only because in air nitrogen has already formed molecules of two nitrogen atom. I would guess, it would not be a pleasant experience to be exposed to atomic nitrogen if this were possible. This contrast between nitrogen gas and other substances containing nitrogen atoms really makes no sense, there is just no relationship between the properties of elements and the properties of compound containing those elements, at the very least not in general. The fact that it becomes dangerous when processed with other elements is the whole point of the sentence. TNT is not directly made from nitrogen but from toluene and nitric acid which are both not innocuous and the later is unlike nitrogen gas and TNT. But it boils down to the point from before, in chemistry it makes not really sense to relate the properties of what goes into a reaction and what comes out. It might cause just minor changes in the properties but it might also change the character completely. And you can also arrive at the same compound via different routes involving different precursors with different properties. Arbitrarily picking some and comparing them to the product is not meaningful most of the time.
pytyper2 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

pixl97 8y ago

Why all the hate nitrogen? Oxygen, that stuff is dangerous.

kurthr 8y ago
Yes, FOOF! http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/thi...