5 ms·

Being realistic about what you are up against is not defeatist. Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is

Being realistic about what you are up against is not defeatist. Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation? And I also mentioned where I think the promising opportunities are coming from.

lisper 8y ago
Realism and defeatism are not mutually exclusive. That's the thing about self-fulfilling prophecies: if you believe in them, then they are actually true.
- tchaffee 8y ago
  You haven't yet answered any of my questions. Since this doesn't seem like a conversation but more like you trying to take my comments in the most ungenerous way possible, I'm going to stop here. But if you want to answer some of my questions and discuss the massive challenges around changing the global dev culture I'll be happy to continue.
  - lisper 8y ago
    > You haven't yet answered any of my questions. That's because you're asking the wrong questions. "Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation?" Those are the wrong questions. The answers to those questions don't get you any closer to a solution to the problem. They only get you to the conclusion that the situation is hopeless and that you should give up. OK, you want an answer? It is both you and the situation that is negative. But the reason that the situation is negative is because of people like you who have decided that the situation is negative and that the only reasonable thing to do is to give up. And you know what? You're right. That is the only reasonable thing to do. Which means that the only way to solve the problem is to be a little unreasonable and carry on despite the fact that it makes no sense. That's why I'm doing things like this: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib
    - tchaffee 8y ago
      I haven't given up. You've still refused to acknowledge that my very first post talked about where I think the promise is coming from. Universities and young programmers who have learned and embraced functional programming. If you think you have the right answers to change a globe full of programmers and to make businesses focus more on software quality, then by all means you should go on to prove to the world you are right. I'll continue to assess the situation realistically and do my thing. I've never once failed to point out to management when I think things are being done poorly. I'm often the new guy on the team who starts measuring and reporting tech debt to management. You're super quick to judge a stranger based on a few comments in a forum. When I put the concerns of the company first (instead of being idealist and obsessive about quality as the only goal that ever matters) management takes what I say seriously. So when I do speak up about quality they listen. That's my path. Fine that yours is different. Maybe if you asked more questions and attacked less you'd find that those who you think are your enemies are actually allies and just have a different idea about the best way to improve things.
      - lisper 8y ago
        > You've still refused to acknowledge that my very first post talked about where I think the promise is coming from. So I went back and re-read your first post: > How could we make different choices? These choices are rarely made by developers unless it's their own startup. That sounds very negative to me. > For most IT jobs these kinds of decisions are made by upper management who have to answer to a board of directors, and ultimately to shareholders. Ditto. > No one ever got fired for using Java. Ditto. > Upper IT management can't just say "we're switching to Haskell because fewer bugs". They have to sell the idea to the folks who will pay for those massive changes which include retraining existing employees. And management does take into consideration how big the hiring pool is. That affects costs. A surge in demand for Haskell programmers would of course create a higher cost for hiring and keeping them. Ditto ditto ditto. > So they continue to hire Java programmers and students graduating from uni make sure they know Java. Ditto. > Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices? Should students refuse jobs in Java? Or without picking on a language, jobs at companies that have the highest software quality standards? That's a lot of idealism and responsibility to ask of someone whose is just hoping they can get a foot in the door and start their career. Ditto. > Or is there someone else you have in mind that could be making different choices? It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity. Ditto. > There is far more at play than the "the belief that this is futile is a self-fulfilling prophecy" although I agree that too is a factor. Mostly ditto. And then, after wading through that sea of negativity, we finally get to this: > I do have hope though. Very well, I acknowledge that in your first post you talk about where you think the promise is coming from. But do you see how someone might come away with the impression that you were not entirely optimistic about it?

lisper 8y ago

Realism and defeatism are not mutually exclusive. That's the thing about self-fulfilling prophecies: if you believe in them, then they are actually true.

tchaffee 8y ago
You haven't yet answered any of my questions. Since this doesn't seem like a conversation but more like you trying to take my comments in the most ungenerous way possible, I'm going to stop here. But if you want to answer some of my questions and discuss the massive challenges around changing the global dev culture I'll be happy to continue.
- lisper 8y ago
  > You haven't yet answered any of my questions. That's because you're asking the wrong questions. "Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation?" Those are the wrong questions. The answers to those questions don't get you any closer to a solution to the problem. They only get you to the conclusion that the situation is hopeless and that you should give up. OK, you want an answer? It is both you and the situation that is negative. But the reason that the situation is negative is because of people like you who have decided that the situation is negative and that the only reasonable thing to do is to give up. And you know what? You're right. That is the only reasonable thing to do. Which means that the only way to solve the problem is to be a little unreasonable and carry on despite the fact that it makes no sense. That's why I'm doing things like this: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib
  - tchaffee 8y ago
    I haven't given up. You've still refused to acknowledge that my very first post talked about where I think the promise is coming from. Universities and young programmers who have learned and embraced functional programming. If you think you have the right answers to change a globe full of programmers and to make businesses focus more on software quality, then by all means you should go on to prove to the world you are right. I'll continue to assess the situation realistically and do my thing. I've never once failed to point out to management when I think things are being done poorly. I'm often the new guy on the team who starts measuring and reporting tech debt to management. You're super quick to judge a stranger based on a few comments in a forum. When I put the concerns of the company first (instead of being idealist and obsessive about quality as the only goal that ever matters) management takes what I say seriously. So when I do speak up about quality they listen. That's my path. Fine that yours is different. Maybe if you asked more questions and attacked less you'd find that those who you think are your enemies are actually allies and just have a different idea about the best way to improve things.
    - lisper 8y ago
      > You've still refused to acknowledge that my very first post talked about where I think the promise is coming from. So I went back and re-read your first post: > How could we make different choices? These choices are rarely made by developers unless it's their own startup. That sounds very negative to me. > For most IT jobs these kinds of decisions are made by upper management who have to answer to a board of directors, and ultimately to shareholders. Ditto. > No one ever got fired for using Java. Ditto. > Upper IT management can't just say "we're switching to Haskell because fewer bugs". They have to sell the idea to the folks who will pay for those massive changes which include retraining existing employees. And management does take into consideration how big the hiring pool is. That affects costs. A surge in demand for Haskell programmers would of course create a higher cost for hiring and keeping them. Ditto ditto ditto. > So they continue to hire Java programmers and students graduating from uni make sure they know Java. Ditto. > Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices? Should students refuse jobs in Java? Or without picking on a language, jobs at companies that have the highest software quality standards? That's a lot of idealism and responsibility to ask of someone whose is just hoping they can get a foot in the door and start their career. Ditto. > Or is there someone else you have in mind that could be making different choices? It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity. Ditto. > There is far more at play than the "the belief that this is futile is a self-fulfilling prophecy" although I agree that too is a factor. Mostly ditto. And then, after wading through that sea of negativity, we finally get to this: > I do have hope though. Very well, I acknowledge that in your first post you talk about where you think the promise is coming from. But do you see how someone might come away with the impression that you were not entirely optimistic about it?