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Correct. In the US, subway stations and buses, elevators, convenience stores etc. have video cameras. Electronic tolling gantries have been used to track vehicl

Correct. In the US, subway stations and buses, elevators, convenience stores etc. have video cameras. Electronic tolling gantries have been used to track vehicles. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash. It's always interesting to see a reference to a different society as a pedagogical tool to learn about something you might not like. The key step though is to see your own life from an outside perspective, i.e. introspection, which is a very lacking skill indeed.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
" elevators, convenience stores etc. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash." Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. In some areas, i.e. highways in LA, they do track license plates, and there is backlash and at least concern. A 'timed security camera' is barely related to the idea of 'ubiquitous cameras that identify you and track your movements in a government DB and input into a social credit score' a system I might add citizens have no recourse to alter.
- kwhitefoot 8y ago
  > Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. Not yet.
  - 394549 8y ago
    >>> " elevators, convenience stores etc. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash." >> Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. > Not yet. That an ominous-sounding, yet totally empty and meaningless response. Most of those cameras are privately owned and operated, and would be incredibly difficult integrate into a centralized state surveillance system. We're mostly talking systems you can buy yourself at Costco: https://www.costco.com/Night-Owl-8-Channel-5MP-Extreme-HD-DVR-2TB%2c-8-5MP-Wired-Infrared-Camera-Security-System.product.100370683.html https://www.costco.com/Night-Owl-8-Channel-5MP-Extreme-HD-DV... Furthermore, a "backlash" in the case of cameras in "elevators, convenience stores etc." would have to be a backlash against private photography.
    - kwhitefoot 8y ago
      Looks like I was optimistic: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE (techcrunch.com), https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17502925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17502925
walrus01 8y ago
The vast majority of cameras in the US aren't feeding centralized recording/storage/analysis/monitoring centers. The $90 1080p cameras in your local 7-11 are probably feeding a box with a few 3TB HDDs in it on a shelf in the back room. Quite the opposite in China.
- ggm 8y ago
  I have attended meetings discussing IoT and at one, the observation was made many of the cameras are deployed by private individuals, not the state. Private individuals want to surveil their own surroundings. I can't explain why, I don't live in China. But I do notice many buildings in the cities I visit have thick strong window bars even up above the 5th floor. Maybe there is a strong concern about local petty crime? I certainly don't disagree there is state surveillance, but I think you should be wary of assuming all devices sold in China as IoT web connected cameras are state cameras.
  - walrus01 8y ago
    I'm not assuming that - there are undoubtedly a huge number of privately owned cameras in China, as there are just about anywhere else in the world that people can afford to put 802.3af/PoE cameras stuck somewhere on a wall, fed from one cat5e cable, that cost $65 to $120 a piece. But as for cameras in major public locations with pedestrian traffic, I would bet that a much higher percentage of cameras in China are actually owned/controlled by a government entity than in the US.
    - ggm 8y ago
      Not being able to say in the US right now, I read that in the UK, private cameras are installed for profit and sell a feed to the police. There are three levels of police in most jurisdictions worldwide: federal state and local. the US is no different, and putting devices on street poles typically demands compliance with planning law, and I suspect in any economy with cameras on light poles or sign posts by roads, its state actors. The UK is either the most, or the second-most surveilled economy in the world. Not western world, worldwide. Cameras per head of population are increadibly high. Your faith in 'old glory' is touching. I suspect, its misplaced.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

" elevators, convenience stores etc. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash." Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. In some areas, i.e. highways in LA, they do track license plates, and there is backlash and at least concern. A 'timed security camera' is barely related to the idea of 'ubiquitous cameras that identify you and track your movements in a government DB and input into a social credit score' a system I might add citizens have no recourse to alter.

kwhitefoot 8y ago
> Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. Not yet.
- 394549 8y ago
  >>> " elevators, convenience stores etc. Red light cameras are everywhere. I haven't seen a backlash." >> Because those cameras are not used to track you, nor are you identified in those videos, nor is that data generally shared with anyone, and in most cases not the government. > Not yet. That an ominous-sounding, yet totally empty and meaningless response. Most of those cameras are privately owned and operated, and would be incredibly difficult integrate into a centralized state surveillance system. We're mostly talking systems you can buy yourself at Costco: https://www.costco.com/Night-Owl-8-Channel-5MP-Extreme-HD-DVR-2TB%2c-8-5MP-Wired-Infrared-Camera-Security-System.product.100370683.html https://www.costco.com/Night-Owl-8-Channel-5MP-Extreme-HD-DV... Furthermore, a "backlash" in the case of cameras in "elevators, convenience stores etc." would have to be a backlash against private photography.
  - kwhitefoot 8y ago
    Looks like I was optimistic: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE (techcrunch.com), https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17502925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17502925

walrus01 8y ago

The vast majority of cameras in the US aren't feeding centralized recording/storage/analysis/monitoring centers. The $90 1080p cameras in your local 7-11 are probably feeding a box with a few 3TB HDDs in it on a shelf in the back room. Quite the opposite in China.

ggm 8y ago
I have attended meetings discussing IoT and at one, the observation was made many of the cameras are deployed by private individuals, not the state. Private individuals want to surveil their own surroundings. I can't explain why, I don't live in China. But I do notice many buildings in the cities I visit have thick strong window bars even up above the 5th floor. Maybe there is a strong concern about local petty crime? I certainly don't disagree there is state surveillance, but I think you should be wary of assuming all devices sold in China as IoT web connected cameras are state cameras.
- walrus01 8y ago
  I'm not assuming that - there are undoubtedly a huge number of privately owned cameras in China, as there are just about anywhere else in the world that people can afford to put 802.3af/PoE cameras stuck somewhere on a wall, fed from one cat5e cable, that cost $65 to $120 a piece. But as for cameras in major public locations with pedestrian traffic, I would bet that a much higher percentage of cameras in China are actually owned/controlled by a government entity than in the US.
  - ggm 8y ago
    Not being able to say in the US right now, I read that in the UK, private cameras are installed for profit and sell a feed to the police. There are three levels of police in most jurisdictions worldwide: federal state and local. the US is no different, and putting devices on street poles typically demands compliance with planning law, and I suspect in any economy with cameras on light poles or sign posts by roads, its state actors. The UK is either the most, or the second-most surveilled economy in the world. Not western world, worldwide. Cameras per head of population are increadibly high. Your faith in 'old glory' is touching. I suspect, its misplaced.