6 ms·

It's a controversial issue, but I try to refrain from eating any type of dairy products (with mixed results) because of two main reasons: - It seems that scien

by baxtr 8y ago

It's a controversial issue, but I try to refrain from eating any type of dairy products (with mixed results) because of two main reasons: - It seems that science is supporting a vegan lifestyle for longevity/a longer health span [1] - Cows are so bad for the environment... [1] https://valterlongo.com/daily-longevity-diet/ https://valterlongo.com/daily-longevity-diet/

21 8y ago
This is a weird one: > Select ingredients among those discussed in this book that your ancestors would have eaten. I'm pretty sure my ancestors never ate bananas, oranges, kale, quinoa, avocado and everything else which wasn't present in Europe 500 years ago.
- baxtr 8y ago
  In the book he is referring to the generation before your parents. I believe because they did not have access to anything that was produced by a chemical plant
  - mattkrause 8y ago
    The generation before my parents (i.e., my grandparents) were born around the time that The Jungle was published, which describes food so tainted that the outcry lead to the formation of the Food and Drug Administration The 50s were full of canned and processed foods too.
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    For me, that generation also did not have access to kale, quinoa, or avocados. Bananas and oranges were a rare treat, because getting them fresh was utterly impractical and expensive where they lived. One side were farmers, the other lower class city folk who got their chickens in cans, and had to over cook pork until it would shatter if you dropped it just to be sure that it was safe to eat. That generation grew up without refridgeration; there was very little in the way of fresh foos during winter months as everything had to be preserved in cans or dried. I for one ame glad for our modern food supply.
    - baxtr 8y ago
      Quoting from the book: Whether it’s lactose or kale, quinoa or turmeric (curcumin), you have to ask whether these were foods common at the table when you, your parents, or your grandparents were growing up. If not, it’s best to avoid them or consume them only occasionally.
paulcole 8y ago
Yep people will look for whatever they can do to “make a difference” as long as it doesn’t affect the things they really want to do. See: driving, having kids, eating meat, etc.
mark212 8y ago
I'd rather milk them than kill them for hamburger and shoes.
- kondro 8y ago
  What do you think happens to all the male calves that are born each year to keep dairy cows lactating?
- cies 8y ago
  For milk to come the cow needs to deliver a calf. How long will you allow the calf to drink her mums milk, before you decide that calf hurts your bottom line? Most commonly the calf is removed from the mom in a few hours, after which the mum is crying for her kid for several days. Dairy is super cruel, besides it being very unhealthy for humans (especially humans after their weening phase).
  - Simon_says 8y ago
    > the mum is crying for her kid Sounds awful. Do you have a reference where I can read/watch more about it?
    - cageface 8y ago
      This video sums up the dark side of the dairy industry pretty well: https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI
      - Gustomaximus 8y ago
        I'd say that video shows the worst of the dairy industry. I grew up spending time on a grandparents dairy over school holidays. It was nothing like this video. Yes you do have things like farms putting their arm up cows vigina and bobby calves being separated. But usually it's a clean and non-traumatic process. Things like the mastitis and blood in the milk is unusual. While I dont doubt there are some highly cruel and unethical operations running, on the dairy farms I used to spend time on those farmers love their animals. That's what these video rarely show, the care and love farmers have for their animals. And 99% of the time that animal is happy and well looked after. But grab clips of the worst farmers at their worst moments and this is what you get.
cies 8y ago
Dairy is very unhealthy for grown-up humans... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q
- gsich 8y ago
  Even the title cries clickbait. For what it's worth: life is deadly. Deal with it and eat what you like.
  - cies 8y ago
    > life is deadly. Deal with it and eat what you like. I agree, but in a situation were CVD kills millions we might want to look at an easy fix. And another point, kill yourself with you shit behavior is one thing, dragging 100s of innocent being along with you by paying for them to be bread/hurt/exploited/killed is another thing. A not very ethical thing, especially since alternatives are readily available. Clickbaity or not, did you see this doctors points? He has quite a case going. Dairy is unhealthy to a point that we should not be so eager to pass this addiction (yes search for casomorphine) on to our children.
    - gsich 8y ago
      I disagree. Not eating dairy products restricts your eating choices considerably. I don't know where this crusade against dairy is coming from (besides the internet). It's very much normal to eat and drink milk related products, especially in countries with domesticated cows.
      - kristallizer1 8y ago
        What makes humans the only species that need to consume the breast milk of other species after weaning?
        gsich 8y ago
        Pleasure. Don't forget the produced goods that come from milk like cheese in your burger. It's diversification in your food ressources. In the ancient past that made it easier to survive.
Arbalest 8y ago
Just waiting for synthetic foods. Science Fiction always likes to paint a picture that such things aren't as good as the "real thing". Sure that might be true in the earlier days, but I suspect that in the end they'll be superior. Though that'll be a long way away yet. Maybe around 2150 :P Food preparation is one of those "adult" things I still struggle with, leading me to consume a lot of convenience things. Maybe if the world wants to move more towards veganism, we need more (pre-)processed food, just not from animal sources. Veganism is too tied to whole food and slow food movements for it to gain traction. The corporate world still sees it as niche, first-world and hipster enough to charge a premium where it does get involved.
simonsarris 8y ago
Guy selling a book sounds like bullshit. A 2017 study finds "no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality." N = 267,180 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ Broadly speaking, a vegan diet is a diet of deficiencies. (Meta-analysis from oxford) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1437024 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1... And probably harmful for brain health. http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/vegan-diets-and-the-brain/?utm_content=buffer85659 http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/vegan-diets-and-the-brain/?utm_...
- baxtr 8y ago
  Are you confounding vegan and vegetarian? Also, the study didn’t control for any of the other variables of his diet for example low sugar intake. You can eat as much vegetables as you like, if you eat a lot of sugar, your diet is still unhealthy. Even if the paper holds for vegan there is still a difference in living longer and living health. That’s why I stated the health span, too. I really recommend reading the book. Its evidence is based not only on large cohort studies like this one, but also on other sources like centennial studies, biochemical pathways etc. It is probably the best source for understanding what food does with our bodies as of today.
  - exolymph 8y ago
    *conflating
    - baxtr 8y ago
      you're right... thanks. Can't edit no more though
- greglindahl 8y ago
  The only thing worse than the pro-vegan whataboutism that you replied to is anti-vegan propaganda like your last link. Sheesh. And the Oxford study has a whole lot of "due to poverty" evidence. "This recommendation is bad because it does't work in Kenya in areas of subsistence farming, where the diet is already kinda shitty" -- really?
nerdponx 8y ago
- As far as I know, there is no such thing as humane dairy. Calves are weaned and taken from their mothers very young. Cows are kept pregnant and eventually their bodies kinda give out. And that's the absolute best case scenario, where all their other needs are tended to and they are generally treated well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
victor106 8y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/well/eat/good-vegan-bad-vegan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/well/eat/good-vegan-bad-v...

by baxtr 8y ago

21 8y ago

This is a weird one: > Select ingredients among those discussed in this book that your ancestors would have eaten. I'm pretty sure my ancestors never ate bananas, oranges, kale, quinoa, avocado and everything else which wasn't present in Europe 500 years ago.

baxtr 8y ago
In the book he is referring to the generation before your parents. I believe because they did not have access to anything that was produced by a chemical plant
- mattkrause 8y ago
  The generation before my parents (i.e., my grandparents) were born around the time that The Jungle was published, which describes food so tainted that the outcry lead to the formation of the Food and Drug Administration The 50s were full of canned and processed foods too.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  For me, that generation also did not have access to kale, quinoa, or avocados. Bananas and oranges were a rare treat, because getting them fresh was utterly impractical and expensive where they lived. One side were farmers, the other lower class city folk who got their chickens in cans, and had to over cook pork until it would shatter if you dropped it just to be sure that it was safe to eat. That generation grew up without refridgeration; there was very little in the way of fresh foos during winter months as everything had to be preserved in cans or dried. I for one ame glad for our modern food supply.
  - baxtr 8y ago
    Quoting from the book: Whether it’s lactose or kale, quinoa or turmeric (curcumin), you have to ask whether these were foods common at the table when you, your parents, or your grandparents were growing up. If not, it’s best to avoid them or consume them only occasionally.

paulcole 8y ago

Yep people will look for whatever they can do to “make a difference” as long as it doesn’t affect the things they really want to do. See: driving, having kids, eating meat, etc.

mark212 8y ago

I'd rather milk them than kill them for hamburger and shoes.

kondro 8y ago
What do you think happens to all the male calves that are born each year to keep dairy cows lactating?
cies 8y ago
For milk to come the cow needs to deliver a calf. How long will you allow the calf to drink her mums milk, before you decide that calf hurts your bottom line? Most commonly the calf is removed from the mom in a few hours, after which the mum is crying for her kid for several days. Dairy is super cruel, besides it being very unhealthy for humans (especially humans after their weening phase).
- Simon_says 8y ago
  > the mum is crying for her kid Sounds awful. Do you have a reference where I can read/watch more about it?
  - cageface 8y ago
    This video sums up the dark side of the dairy industry pretty well: https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI
    - Gustomaximus 8y ago
      I'd say that video shows the worst of the dairy industry. I grew up spending time on a grandparents dairy over school holidays. It was nothing like this video. Yes you do have things like farms putting their arm up cows vigina and bobby calves being separated. But usually it's a clean and non-traumatic process. Things like the mastitis and blood in the milk is unusual. While I dont doubt there are some highly cruel and unethical operations running, on the dairy farms I used to spend time on those farmers love their animals. That's what these video rarely show, the care and love farmers have for their animals. And 99% of the time that animal is happy and well looked after. But grab clips of the worst farmers at their worst moments and this is what you get.

cies 8y ago

Dairy is very unhealthy for grown-up humans... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3c_D0s391Q

gsich 8y ago
Even the title cries clickbait. For what it's worth: life is deadly. Deal with it and eat what you like.
- cies 8y ago
  > life is deadly. Deal with it and eat what you like. I agree, but in a situation were CVD kills millions we might want to look at an easy fix. And another point, kill yourself with you shit behavior is one thing, dragging 100s of innocent being along with you by paying for them to be bread/hurt/exploited/killed is another thing. A not very ethical thing, especially since alternatives are readily available. Clickbaity or not, did you see this doctors points? He has quite a case going. Dairy is unhealthy to a point that we should not be so eager to pass this addiction (yes search for casomorphine) on to our children.
  - gsich 8y ago
    I disagree. Not eating dairy products restricts your eating choices considerably. I don't know where this crusade against dairy is coming from (besides the internet). It's very much normal to eat and drink milk related products, especially in countries with domesticated cows.
    - kristallizer1 8y ago
      What makes humans the only species that need to consume the breast milk of other species after weaning?
      - gsich 8y ago
        Pleasure. Don't forget the produced goods that come from milk like cheese in your burger. It's diversification in your food ressources. In the ancient past that made it easier to survive.

Arbalest 8y ago

Just waiting for synthetic foods. Science Fiction always likes to paint a picture that such things aren't as good as the "real thing". Sure that might be true in the earlier days, but I suspect that in the end they'll be superior. Though that'll be a long way away yet. Maybe around 2150 :P Food preparation is one of those "adult" things I still struggle with, leading me to consume a lot of convenience things. Maybe if the world wants to move more towards veganism, we need more (pre-)processed food, just not from animal sources. Veganism is too tied to whole food and slow food movements for it to gain traction. The corporate world still sees it as niche, first-world and hipster enough to charge a premium where it does get involved.

simonsarris 8y ago

Guy selling a book sounds like bullshit. A 2017 study finds "no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality." N = 267,180 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ Broadly speaking, a vegan diet is a diet of deficiencies. (Meta-analysis from oxford) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1437024 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2018.1... And probably harmful for brain health. http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/vegan-diets-and-the-brain/?utm_content=buffer85659 http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/vegan-diets-and-the-brain/?utm_...

baxtr 8y ago
Are you confounding vegan and vegetarian? Also, the study didn’t control for any of the other variables of his diet for example low sugar intake. You can eat as much vegetables as you like, if you eat a lot of sugar, your diet is still unhealthy. Even if the paper holds for vegan there is still a difference in living longer and living health. That’s why I stated the health span, too. I really recommend reading the book. Its evidence is based not only on large cohort studies like this one, but also on other sources like centennial studies, biochemical pathways etc. It is probably the best source for understanding what food does with our bodies as of today.
- exolymph 8y ago
  *conflating
  - baxtr 8y ago
    you're right... thanks. Can't edit no more though
greglindahl 8y ago
The only thing worse than the pro-vegan whataboutism that you replied to is anti-vegan propaganda like your last link. Sheesh. And the Oxford study has a whole lot of "due to poverty" evidence. "This recommendation is bad because it does't work in Kenya in areas of subsistence farming, where the diet is already kinda shitty" -- really?

nerdponx 8y ago

- As far as I know, there is no such thing as humane dairy. Calves are weaned and taken from their mothers very young. Cows are kept pregnant and eventually their bodies kinda give out. And that's the absolute best case scenario, where all their other needs are tended to and they are generally treated well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

victor106 8y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/well/eat/good-vegan-bad-vegan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/well/eat/good-vegan-bad-v...