5 ms·

>Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. You mean not waking up again? I don't see what is so worrying about that? If one truly beli

>Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. You mean not waking up again? I don't see what is so worrying about that? If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? Edit: to be clear, I'm a Christian, - I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death (except for worrying about their loved ones and the pain of dying that is.)

Baeocystin 8y ago
>If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? At the very least, most people feel a sense of responsibility towards their loved ones, and knowing they will no longer be around to take care of them is a significant source of stress. That is how it was for my father. And if it ever comes to pass where I am terminal but still lucid, it will be the primary source of my frustration as well.
- hanshan 8y ago
  Is the goal of parents raising children not to prepare them to be adults that can take care of themselves? That's the problem with "helicopter parents", they hold on so selfishly to their role as a parent that they stunt their children's growth and atrophy their capacity for autonomy. There comes a point in all our lives where we become so old that we become burdensome. If the old never died, there wouldn't be room or resources for new life and ideas to be born and grow. In that sense, it is honorable to meet death, because you are making room for new life.
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    I spoke of the lifelong bond between parent and child. In healthy relationships, that does not end once the child reaches independence. Rather, it grows into a deeper relationship than before. If, when reading that, your mind goes to solely helicopter parenting, that is on you.
    - hanshan 8y ago
      No you didn't, you spoke of "responsibility", and being around to "take care of them", which implies an unfulfilled or unending paternalism
      - Baeocystin 8y ago
        In no way does it imply that.
Omnus 8y ago
lmao - "I can't understand why non-religious people are afraid of death except for literally all of the most obvious reasons that they should be". It's baffling that people say they "don't understand" the fear of completely losing one's conscious experience forever. It's just vapid nonsense to say "well you won't feel anything at all when you're dead so why are you scared?" No shit...people experience the fear of endless oblivion before they actually die, not after. People want to continue living while they are alive. It's not a mystery.
- hanshan 8y ago
  It seems your logic has been overriden by your fear. If, as you hypothesize, one loses "conscious experience forever" when they die, how could they consciously experience "endless oblivion"? How is fearing nonexistence different from a child fearing nonexistent monsters under their bed?
  - Omnus 8y ago
    First of all, I don't "hypothesize" anything - I am just pointing out what seems to be the obvious answer to "what happens when you die?". When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. Second, I find your puzzlement with the fear of nonexistence utterly incoherent. Humans are born with the desire to live. We don't want to stop existing. Stating the obvious truth that one can't experience things when they are dead is completely void of content - the point is that we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive because we'd like to continue on and be healthy again.
    - hanshan 8y ago
      >When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. People often have dreams under such circumstances, and there are many who have died and been resusitated that report having wild experiences inbetween. >we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive Again, you're mythologizing/hypothesizing here with your use of the word "eternal". But yes, when confronted with immediate life threatening situations, all animals including humans have a natural fight or flight instinct. However, not all humans (and seemingly no animals) have such existential dread like you do of a future of eternal nonexistence. Your fear is a result of your materialist reductionist mythology. The simple fact of this discussion is: no one knows what death is truly like, so we can only extrapolate, hypothesize, and mythologize.
wpietri 8y ago
Well, one obvious reason is that it's the loss of everything. Friends, family, loved ones. Future experience, memory, agency. Everything. If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep?
- asfasgasg 8y ago
  I'm of two minds about this. Like most everyone, of course, I have this fear. I ponder the ways it is not adaptive. I find it lessens over time as I consider this.
- hanshan 8y ago
  >If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep? If we have no choice but to go to sleep, why would we want to spend those last moments feeling terribly uncomfortable? If we face the facts that death is a part of life, and that we all must die, what's the practical value in fretting over that fact? (Aside from being wise not to do stupid things that lead to a stupid death)
  - wpietri 8y ago
    Excerpting my point out of context like this isn't helpful. I'm responding to the Christian's glib notion that he doesn't understand why atheists worry about dying. There's no value at all in fretting over death once it's inevitable. There is great value in fretting over possible deaths we can avoid. And regardless, death for atheists is the loss of everything, and loss aversion is a well-studied component of human psychology, so it should be unsurprising even to a Christian that atheists are not particularly jolly about death.
    - hanshan 8y ago
      Yes, I understand why atheists are so fearful of death, but also see the illogical and impractical nature of it. >death for atheists is the loss of everything Atheist logic should lead to the realization that from an individual standpoint, there is no possibility for the experience of this feared loss, at all. Immediately before the moment of death, you still have it all. Immediately at the moment of death, you have no conscious ability to experience the loss. Therefore the fear is not logical, it's irrational because your "total loss" is something you can never experience.
kalleboo 8y ago
> I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation > Self-preservation is a behavior that ensures the survival of an organism. It is almost universal among living organisms. Pain and fear are integral parts of this mechanism.

Baeocystin 8y ago

>If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? At the very least, most people feel a sense of responsibility towards their loved ones, and knowing they will no longer be around to take care of them is a significant source of stress. That is how it was for my father. And if it ever comes to pass where I am terminal but still lucid, it will be the primary source of my frustration as well.

hanshan 8y ago
Is the goal of parents raising children not to prepare them to be adults that can take care of themselves? That's the problem with "helicopter parents", they hold on so selfishly to their role as a parent that they stunt their children's growth and atrophy their capacity for autonomy. There comes a point in all our lives where we become so old that we become burdensome. If the old never died, there wouldn't be room or resources for new life and ideas to be born and grow. In that sense, it is honorable to meet death, because you are making room for new life.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  I spoke of the lifelong bond between parent and child. In healthy relationships, that does not end once the child reaches independence. Rather, it grows into a deeper relationship than before. If, when reading that, your mind goes to solely helicopter parenting, that is on you.
  - hanshan 8y ago
    No you didn't, you spoke of "responsibility", and being around to "take care of them", which implies an unfulfilled or unending paternalism
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      In no way does it imply that.

Omnus 8y ago

lmao - "I can't understand why non-religious people are afraid of death except for literally all of the most obvious reasons that they should be". It's baffling that people say they "don't understand" the fear of completely losing one's conscious experience forever. It's just vapid nonsense to say "well you won't feel anything at all when you're dead so why are you scared?" No shit...people experience the fear of endless oblivion before they actually die, not after. People want to continue living while they are alive. It's not a mystery.

hanshan 8y ago
It seems your logic has been overriden by your fear. If, as you hypothesize, one loses "conscious experience forever" when they die, how could they consciously experience "endless oblivion"? How is fearing nonexistence different from a child fearing nonexistent monsters under their bed?
- Omnus 8y ago
  First of all, I don't "hypothesize" anything - I am just pointing out what seems to be the obvious answer to "what happens when you die?". When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. Second, I find your puzzlement with the fear of nonexistence utterly incoherent. Humans are born with the desire to live. We don't want to stop existing. Stating the obvious truth that one can't experience things when they are dead is completely void of content - the point is that we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive because we'd like to continue on and be healthy again.
  - hanshan 8y ago
    >When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. People often have dreams under such circumstances, and there are many who have died and been resusitated that report having wild experiences inbetween. >we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive Again, you're mythologizing/hypothesizing here with your use of the word "eternal". But yes, when confronted with immediate life threatening situations, all animals including humans have a natural fight or flight instinct. However, not all humans (and seemingly no animals) have such existential dread like you do of a future of eternal nonexistence. Your fear is a result of your materialist reductionist mythology. The simple fact of this discussion is: no one knows what death is truly like, so we can only extrapolate, hypothesize, and mythologize.

wpietri 8y ago

Well, one obvious reason is that it's the loss of everything. Friends, family, loved ones. Future experience, memory, agency. Everything. If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep?

asfasgasg 8y ago
I'm of two minds about this. Like most everyone, of course, I have this fear. I ponder the ways it is not adaptive. I find it lessens over time as I consider this.
hanshan 8y ago
>If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep? If we have no choice but to go to sleep, why would we want to spend those last moments feeling terribly uncomfortable? If we face the facts that death is a part of life, and that we all must die, what's the practical value in fretting over that fact? (Aside from being wise not to do stupid things that lead to a stupid death)
- wpietri 8y ago
  Excerpting my point out of context like this isn't helpful. I'm responding to the Christian's glib notion that he doesn't understand why atheists worry about dying. There's no value at all in fretting over death once it's inevitable. There is great value in fretting over possible deaths we can avoid. And regardless, death for atheists is the loss of everything, and loss aversion is a well-studied component of human psychology, so it should be unsurprising even to a Christian that atheists are not particularly jolly about death.
  - hanshan 8y ago
    Yes, I understand why atheists are so fearful of death, but also see the illogical and impractical nature of it. >death for atheists is the loss of everything Atheist logic should lead to the realization that from an individual standpoint, there is no possibility for the experience of this feared loss, at all. Immediately before the moment of death, you still have it all. Immediately at the moment of death, you have no conscious ability to experience the loss. Therefore the fear is not logical, it's irrational because your "total loss" is something you can never experience.

kalleboo 8y ago

> I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation > Self-preservation is a behavior that ensures the survival of an organism. It is almost universal among living organisms. Pain and fear are integral parts of this mechanism.