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I'm skeptical that any of those things actually "prepare" people to face death in the first place. Feeling like you're "prepared" weeks, months, or years before

by Omnus 8y ago

I'm skeptical that any of those things actually "prepare" people to face death in the first place. Feeling like you're "prepared" weeks, months, or years before the final hours of your self or a loved one does not necessarily translate to those final moments when you are actually going through it.

hanshan 8y ago
It's pretty well documented how terrified western culture is of death relative to others. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell is an excellent book which goes into insightful detail on this subject.
- Omnus 8y ago
  Terrified is the wrong word. Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. Sure, you can delude an entire society with fairy tales and they will feel better about dying...that's not a virtue though.
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    >Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. You mean not waking up again? I don't see what is so worrying about that? If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? Edit: to be clear, I'm a Christian, - I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death (except for worrying about their loved ones and the pain of dying that is.)
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      >If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? At the very least, most people feel a sense of responsibility towards their loved ones, and knowing they will no longer be around to take care of them is a significant source of stress. That is how it was for my father. And if it ever comes to pass where I am terminal but still lucid, it will be the primary source of my frustration as well.
      - hanshan 8y ago
        Is the goal of parents raising children not to prepare them to be adults that can take care of themselves? That's the problem with "helicopter parents", they hold on so selfishly to their role as a parent that they stunt their children's growth and atrophy their capacity for autonomy. There comes a point in all our lives where we become so old that we become burdensome. If the old never died, there wouldn't be room or resources for new life and ideas to be born and grow. In that sense, it is honorable to meet death, because you are making room for new life.
        Baeocystin 8y ago
        I spoke of the lifelong bond between parent and child. In healthy relationships, that does not end once the child reaches independence. Rather, it grows into a deeper relationship than before. If, when reading that, your mind goes to solely helicopter parenting, that is on you.
        hanshan 8y ago
        No you didn't, you spoke of "responsibility", and being around to "take care of them", which implies an unfulfilled or unending paternalism
        Baeocystin 8y ago
        In no way does it imply that.
    - Omnus 8y ago
      lmao - "I can't understand why non-religious people are afraid of death except for literally all of the most obvious reasons that they should be". It's baffling that people say they "don't understand" the fear of completely losing one's conscious experience forever. It's just vapid nonsense to say "well you won't feel anything at all when you're dead so why are you scared?" No shit...people experience the fear of endless oblivion before they actually die, not after. People want to continue living while they are alive. It's not a mystery.
      - hanshan 8y ago
        It seems your logic has been overriden by your fear. If, as you hypothesize, one loses "conscious experience forever" when they die, how could they consciously experience "endless oblivion"? How is fearing nonexistence different from a child fearing nonexistent monsters under their bed?
        Omnus 8y ago
        First of all, I don't "hypothesize" anything - I am just pointing out what seems to be the obvious answer to "what happens when you die?". When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. Second, I find your puzzlement with the fear of nonexistence utterly incoherent. Humans are born with the desire to live. We don't want to stop existing. Stating the obvious truth that one can't experience things when they are dead is completely void of content - the point is that we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive because we'd like to continue on and be healthy again.
        hanshan 8y ago
        >When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. People often have dreams under such circumstances, and there are many who have died and been resusitated that report having wild experiences inbetween. >we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive Again, you're mythologizing/hypothesizing here with your use of the word "eternal". But yes, when confronted with immediate life threatening situations, all animals including humans have a natural fight or flight instinct. However, not all humans (and seemingly no animals) have such existential dread like you do of a future of eternal nonexistence. Your fear is a result of your materialist reductionist mythology. The simple fact of this discussion is: no one knows what death is truly like, so we can only extrapolate, hypothesize, and mythologize.
    - wpietri 8y ago
      Well, one obvious reason is that it's the loss of everything. Friends, family, loved ones. Future experience, memory, agency. Everything. If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep?
      - asfasgasg 8y ago
        I'm of two minds about this. Like most everyone, of course, I have this fear. I ponder the ways it is not adaptive. I find it lessens over time as I consider this.
      - hanshan 8y ago
        >If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep? If we have no choice but to go to sleep, why would we want to spend those last moments feeling terribly uncomfortable? If we face the facts that death is a part of life, and that we all must die, what's the practical value in fretting over that fact? (Aside from being wise not to do stupid things that lead to a stupid death)
        wpietri 8y ago
        Excerpting my point out of context like this isn't helpful. I'm responding to the Christian's glib notion that he doesn't understand why atheists worry about dying. There's no value at all in fretting over death once it's inevitable. There is great value in fretting over possible deaths we can avoid. And regardless, death for atheists is the loss of everything, and loss aversion is a well-studied component of human psychology, so it should be unsurprising even to a Christian that atheists are not particularly jolly about death.
        hanshan 8y ago
        Yes, I understand why atheists are so fearful of death, but also see the illogical and impractical nature of it. >death for atheists is the loss of everything Atheist logic should lead to the realization that from an individual standpoint, there is no possibility for the experience of this feared loss, at all. Immediately before the moment of death, you still have it all. Immediately at the moment of death, you have no conscious ability to experience the loss. Therefore the fear is not logical, it's irrational because your "total loss" is something you can never experience.
    - kalleboo 8y ago
      > I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation > Self-preservation is a behavior that ensures the survival of an organism. It is almost universal among living organisms. Pain and fear are integral parts of this mechanism.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    I don't believe that at all. Western culture is strongly influenced by Christian notions like an eternal soul which has life after death. And American culture has a strong element of the pursuit of eternal youth. Contrast that with the acceptance of the transitory nature of existence that's central to Buddhism. Or even things like the Mexican Day of the Dead, where death is celebrated as a part of life.
  - hanshan 8y ago
    >Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. What is the "reality of the situation" in regards to death that they are so privy to?
    - Omnus 8y ago
      That physical damage to the brain results in loss or impairment of consciousness, and that there is absolutely no evidence that total biological death would entail anything but the cessation of this consciousness. [EDIT: I want to be clear - I am NOT saying that it could never be the case that some form of "being" exists outside of what appears to us as a finite biological existence, I am merely pointing out that we have no evidence of this kind of existence, aside from vague spiritual feelings and experiences which are difficult to evaluate, so the skeptical position is the most honest one for the time being.]
      - hanshan 8y ago
        >no evidence that total biological death would entail anything but You seem very certain of your hypothesis. Is there anything that science has had a harder time defining, quantifying, or understanding than the nature of consciousness as it relates to reality? With that in mind it would seem more in keeping with the spirit of science to remain agnostic ("I don't know"), rather than atheistic ("I know") >Those who raise questions about the God hypothesis and the soul hypothesis are by no means all atheists. An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed. -Carl Sagan
wpietri 8y ago
There's nothing wrong with skepticism. Unless you let it stop you from learning. So I'd say be skeptical, but also be willing to explore. Personally, I think there's a fair bit of reason to believe that both Zen training and hospice experience are useful to facing one's own death. Cultivating awareness of impermanence is central to Buddhist thought. Zen includes such traditions as composing one's own death poem [1] and specific meditations on death [2]. I also found spending time in a hospice to be useful. Anything unknown is hard to think about and possibly scary. Being in the presence of death made it more real for me. And I'm not alone in this; a hospice program founder has an excellent talk [3] and book [4] on what people can learn from hospice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati [3] http://longnow.org/seminars/02017/apr/10/what-dying-teach-living/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02017/apr/10/what-dying-teach-li... [4] https://www.amazon.com/Five-Invitations-Discovering-Death-Living-ebook/dp/B01KTBCZD4 https://www.amazon.com/Five-Invitations-Discovering-Death-Li...

by Omnus 8y ago

hanshan 8y ago

It's pretty well documented how terrified western culture is of death relative to others. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell is an excellent book which goes into insightful detail on this subject.

Omnus 8y ago
Terrified is the wrong word. Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. Sure, you can delude an entire society with fairy tales and they will feel better about dying...that's not a virtue though.
- reitanqild 8y ago
  >Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. You mean not waking up again? I don't see what is so worrying about that? If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? Edit: to be clear, I'm a Christian, - I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death (except for worrying about their loved ones and the pain of dying that is.)
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    >If one truly believe there's nothing after this life I'd think one should be very calm? At the very least, most people feel a sense of responsibility towards their loved ones, and knowing they will no longer be around to take care of them is a significant source of stress. That is how it was for my father. And if it ever comes to pass where I am terminal but still lucid, it will be the primary source of my frustration as well.
    - hanshan 8y ago
      Is the goal of parents raising children not to prepare them to be adults that can take care of themselves? That's the problem with "helicopter parents", they hold on so selfishly to their role as a parent that they stunt their children's growth and atrophy their capacity for autonomy. There comes a point in all our lives where we become so old that we become burdensome. If the old never died, there wouldn't be room or resources for new life and ideas to be born and grow. In that sense, it is honorable to meet death, because you are making room for new life.
      - Baeocystin 8y ago
        I spoke of the lifelong bond between parent and child. In healthy relationships, that does not end once the child reaches independence. Rather, it grows into a deeper relationship than before. If, when reading that, your mind goes to solely helicopter parenting, that is on you.
        hanshan 8y ago
        No you didn't, you spoke of "responsibility", and being around to "take care of them", which implies an unfulfilled or unending paternalism
        Baeocystin 8y ago
        In no way does it imply that.
  - Omnus 8y ago
    lmao - "I can't understand why non-religious people are afraid of death except for literally all of the most obvious reasons that they should be". It's baffling that people say they "don't understand" the fear of completely losing one's conscious experience forever. It's just vapid nonsense to say "well you won't feel anything at all when you're dead so why are you scared?" No shit...people experience the fear of endless oblivion before they actually die, not after. People want to continue living while they are alive. It's not a mystery.
    - hanshan 8y ago
      It seems your logic has been overriden by your fear. If, as you hypothesize, one loses "conscious experience forever" when they die, how could they consciously experience "endless oblivion"? How is fearing nonexistence different from a child fearing nonexistent monsters under their bed?
      - Omnus 8y ago
        First of all, I don't "hypothesize" anything - I am just pointing out what seems to be the obvious answer to "what happens when you die?". When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. Second, I find your puzzlement with the fear of nonexistence utterly incoherent. Humans are born with the desire to live. We don't want to stop existing. Stating the obvious truth that one can't experience things when they are dead is completely void of content - the point is that we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive because we'd like to continue on and be healthy again.
        hanshan 8y ago
        >When the brain is damaged or undergoes chemical changes, we know that consciousness seems to disappear. There is no strong evidence to think this is different upon the death of any organism. People often have dreams under such circumstances, and there are many who have died and been resusitated that report having wild experiences inbetween. >we fear our eternal end WHILE we are alive Again, you're mythologizing/hypothesizing here with your use of the word "eternal". But yes, when confronted with immediate life threatening situations, all animals including humans have a natural fight or flight instinct. However, not all humans (and seemingly no animals) have such existential dread like you do of a future of eternal nonexistence. Your fear is a result of your materialist reductionist mythology. The simple fact of this discussion is: no one knows what death is truly like, so we can only extrapolate, hypothesize, and mythologize.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    Well, one obvious reason is that it's the loss of everything. Friends, family, loved ones. Future experience, memory, agency. Everything. If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep?
    - asfasgasg 8y ago
      I'm of two minds about this. Like most everyone, of course, I have this fear. I ponder the ways it is not adaptive. I find it lessens over time as I consider this.
    - hanshan 8y ago
      >If you thought you'd never wake up again, how comfortably would you go to sleep? If we have no choice but to go to sleep, why would we want to spend those last moments feeling terribly uncomfortable? If we face the facts that death is a part of life, and that we all must die, what's the practical value in fretting over that fact? (Aside from being wise not to do stupid things that lead to a stupid death)
      - wpietri 8y ago
        Excerpting my point out of context like this isn't helpful. I'm responding to the Christian's glib notion that he doesn't understand why atheists worry about dying. There's no value at all in fretting over death once it's inevitable. There is great value in fretting over possible deaths we can avoid. And regardless, death for atheists is the loss of everything, and loss aversion is a well-studied component of human psychology, so it should be unsurprising even to a Christian that atheists are not particularly jolly about death.
        hanshan 8y ago
        Yes, I understand why atheists are so fearful of death, but also see the illogical and impractical nature of it. >death for atheists is the loss of everything Atheist logic should lead to the realization that from an individual standpoint, there is no possibility for the experience of this feared loss, at all. Immediately before the moment of death, you still have it all. Immediately at the moment of death, you have no conscious ability to experience the loss. Therefore the fear is not logical, it's irrational because your "total loss" is something you can never experience.
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    > I just happen to be puzzled by why non-religious people are afraid of death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation > Self-preservation is a behavior that ensures the survival of an organism. It is almost universal among living organisms. Pain and fear are integral parts of this mechanism.
- wpietri 8y ago
  I don't believe that at all. Western culture is strongly influenced by Christian notions like an eternal soul which has life after death. And American culture has a strong element of the pursuit of eternal youth. Contrast that with the acceptance of the transitory nature of existence that's central to Buddhism. Or even things like the Mexican Day of the Dead, where death is celebrated as a part of life.
- hanshan 8y ago
  >Western culture simply understands the reality of the situation. What is the "reality of the situation" in regards to death that they are so privy to?
  - Omnus 8y ago
    That physical damage to the brain results in loss or impairment of consciousness, and that there is absolutely no evidence that total biological death would entail anything but the cessation of this consciousness. [EDIT: I want to be clear - I am NOT saying that it could never be the case that some form of "being" exists outside of what appears to us as a finite biological existence, I am merely pointing out that we have no evidence of this kind of existence, aside from vague spiritual feelings and experiences which are difficult to evaluate, so the skeptical position is the most honest one for the time being.]
    - hanshan 8y ago
      >no evidence that total biological death would entail anything but You seem very certain of your hypothesis. Is there anything that science has had a harder time defining, quantifying, or understanding than the nature of consciousness as it relates to reality? With that in mind it would seem more in keeping with the spirit of science to remain agnostic ("I don't know"), rather than atheistic ("I know") >Those who raise questions about the God hypothesis and the soul hypothesis are by no means all atheists. An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed. -Carl Sagan

wpietri 8y ago

There's nothing wrong with skepticism. Unless you let it stop you from learning. So I'd say be skeptical, but also be willing to explore. Personally, I think there's a fair bit of reason to believe that both Zen training and hospice experience are useful to facing one's own death. Cultivating awareness of impermanence is central to Buddhist thought. Zen includes such traditions as composing one's own death poem [1] and specific meditations on death [2]. I also found spending time in a hospice to be useful. Anything unknown is hard to think about and possibly scary. Being in the presence of death made it more real for me. And I'm not alone in this; a hospice program founder has an excellent talk [3] and book [4] on what people can learn from hospice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%E1%B9%87asati [3] http://longnow.org/seminars/02017/apr/10/what-dying-teach-living/ http://longnow.org/seminars/02017/apr/10/what-dying-teach-li... [4] https://www.amazon.com/Five-Invitations-Discovering-Death-Living-ebook/dp/B01KTBCZD4 https://www.amazon.com/Five-Invitations-Discovering-Death-Li...