7 ms·

So because some people are idiots others should have to suffer? Kratom literally saved my life. I was hopelessly addicted to opioids and went from shooting hero

So because some people are idiots others should have to suffer? Kratom literally saved my life. I was hopelessly addicted to opioids and went from shooting heroin to ingesting plant matter. I agree that the opiate naive shouldn't stupidly throw themselves into opiate addiction but the idea that because some people can't handle themselves I should have to suffer is ridiculous.

dsr_ 8y ago
Just to be clear -- heroin is processed morphine, which comes from poppy sap. Cocaine is processed coca leaves. Nicotine is primarily extracted from tobacco leaves. Belladonna, strychnine and digitalis... just because something is made from a plant doesn't make it less of a drug or less dangerous.
- slfnflctd 8y ago
  The most dangerous drugs aren't really comparable, though. They tend to be processed concentrates of the plant, and in those cases the plant itself is much less harmful than the concentrate. Consuming plant matter directly with minimal processing is quite a different thing from isolating the active ingredients as much as possible, creating dosages much higher than found in nature and simultaneously removing buffering material such as fiber and other nutrients.
- bfuller 8y ago
  Are you saying kratom is as dangerous as heroin? If not why post this?
  - ryanmercer 8y ago
    They are saying just because it grew out of the ground doesn't mean it is safe. I found that pretty clear.
    - bfuller 8y ago
      And how does that relate to what I posted? I clearly was not saying any plant is safe, I was comparing heroin and kratom.
throwaway5752 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17297666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17297666 "LSD was a miracle for me personally and saved my life"
- 0110011 8y ago
  The two statements are not contradictory. Psychedelics helped a friend unbury himself from the cycle of opiates (and depression from a stage iv melanoma diagnosis) and kratom helped ease the withdrawals.
  - bfuller 8y ago
    That's exactly the case for myself also.
- wholinator2 8y ago
  What about it? We're talking about kratom here and attempting to derail the discussion with an unrelated opinion only shows a weakness of your own argument. For someone who talks about straw men I would think you should recognize your herrings.
- bfuller 8y ago
  Kratom allowed me to treat the symptoms of physical withdrawal and LSD cured the depression that followed. Do you have anything to add to this conversation?
- dang 8y ago
  Digging up someone's previous comment like that as ammunition in an argument breaks HN's civility rule. If you have a point, make it substantively. If you have a question about a previous comment, ask it politely. But doing this as an internet argument trope is offside, and doing it on the territory of someone's deepest life experiences is... low.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
dang 8y ago
I appreciate the concrete experience described in your comment, but please don't do this here: > So because some people are idiots others should have to suffer? It degrades discussion and encourages worse from others. And since it was obviously not what the commenter was saying, it breaks the guideline which asks you to respond to charitable interpretations, not weak ones: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Also, you've gotten into flamewars about drugs on HN before, and we had to ask you to stop. I get that you have reason to feel strongly about this topic, but that doesn't make it ok to bring sharp elbows into the conversations. If you can't be respectful, including to people who seem completely wrong, then please don't post.
- bfuller 8y ago
  Thanks dang.
Zooper 8y ago
I agree with this; I have witnessed Kratom aid people in quitting opioids, and when used properly as a quitting aid, it could help a great many people, should not be made illegal or placed under regulatory capture, and should be studied and brought into formal treatment. I personally keep some around in the rare instances where I would take ibuprofen or something similar. In a similar vein, the generic drug tianeptine, prescribed for over 30 years in other countries for depression & anxiety, is now a schedule 2 controlled substance in Michigan (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/michigan/articles/2018-03-21/snyder-to-receive-bill-on-statewide-tianeptine-sodium-ban https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/michigan/articles/20...), one of the major base states for the Johnson & Johnson corp, which studied the substance (https://adisinsight.springer.com/drugs/800039841 https://adisinsight.springer.com/drugs/800039841) entering clinical trails for release here, but was dropped with no reasoning. Before some talking-head chimes in that tianeptine is a μ-opioid receptor, read the atypical part and addiction data in countries where it has been prescribed widely. It is the only drug which effectively treats my depression and anxiety, it is generic so large drug companies cannot make an exorbitant profit off of it, and they are keeping it from the US through media scare-tactics, like Kratom, to ensure their profitability and the reception of their patented drugs like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esketamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esketamine. We should stop them.
- bfuller 8y ago
  Tianeptine is a lot different than kratom though. I know it works really well for some people, but its abuse potential is far higher than kratom. I could never have it around, no matter how well it treats depression, because as a former opiate addict having something cheap and legal that feels pretty much the same as oxycodone (in massive doses compared to its therapeutic dose) is a recipe for disaster. If only tianeptine could be made available in the correct (12.5mg) doses, prescribed by a doctor, maybe I could use it. But as it stands, buying powder by the gram would lead to my demise.
  - Zooper 8y ago
    Thank you for that input; yes, the solution is a narrow bridge that has to balance the needs of people who use it as medicine with the potential for addiction (especially in the case of previous opiate dependency). This balancing act, though, gets severely unbalanced in the presence of profit incentives, leading to the media maximization of the addiction potential (or any negative really).

dsr_ 8y ago

Just to be clear -- heroin is processed morphine, which comes from poppy sap. Cocaine is processed coca leaves. Nicotine is primarily extracted from tobacco leaves. Belladonna, strychnine and digitalis... just because something is made from a plant doesn't make it less of a drug or less dangerous.

slfnflctd 8y ago
The most dangerous drugs aren't really comparable, though. They tend to be processed concentrates of the plant, and in those cases the plant itself is much less harmful than the concentrate. Consuming plant matter directly with minimal processing is quite a different thing from isolating the active ingredients as much as possible, creating dosages much higher than found in nature and simultaneously removing buffering material such as fiber and other nutrients.
bfuller 8y ago
Are you saying kratom is as dangerous as heroin? If not why post this?
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  They are saying just because it grew out of the ground doesn't mean it is safe. I found that pretty clear.
  - bfuller 8y ago
    And how does that relate to what I posted? I clearly was not saying any plant is safe, I was comparing heroin and kratom.

throwaway5752 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17297666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17297666 "LSD was a miracle for me personally and saved my life"

0110011 8y ago
The two statements are not contradictory. Psychedelics helped a friend unbury himself from the cycle of opiates (and depression from a stage iv melanoma diagnosis) and kratom helped ease the withdrawals.
- bfuller 8y ago
  That's exactly the case for myself also.
wholinator2 8y ago
What about it? We're talking about kratom here and attempting to derail the discussion with an unrelated opinion only shows a weakness of your own argument. For someone who talks about straw men I would think you should recognize your herrings.
bfuller 8y ago
Kratom allowed me to treat the symptoms of physical withdrawal and LSD cured the depression that followed. Do you have anything to add to this conversation?
dang 8y ago
Digging up someone's previous comment like that as ammunition in an argument breaks HN's civility rule. If you have a point, make it substantively. If you have a question about a previous comment, ask it politely. But doing this as an internet argument trope is offside, and doing it on the territory of someone's deepest life experiences is... low.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

dang 8y ago

I appreciate the concrete experience described in your comment, but please don't do this here: > So because some people are idiots others should have to suffer? It degrades discussion and encourages worse from others. And since it was obviously not what the commenter was saying, it breaks the guideline which asks you to respond to charitable interpretations, not weak ones: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Also, you've gotten into flamewars about drugs on HN before, and we had to ask you to stop. I get that you have reason to feel strongly about this topic, but that doesn't make it ok to bring sharp elbows into the conversations. If you can't be respectful, including to people who seem completely wrong, then please don't post.

bfuller 8y ago
Thanks dang.

Zooper 8y ago

I agree with this; I have witnessed Kratom aid people in quitting opioids, and when used properly as a quitting aid, it could help a great many people, should not be made illegal or placed under regulatory capture, and should be studied and brought into formal treatment. I personally keep some around in the rare instances where I would take ibuprofen or something similar. In a similar vein, the generic drug tianeptine, prescribed for over 30 years in other countries for depression & anxiety, is now a schedule 2 controlled substance in Michigan (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/michigan/articles/2018-03-21/snyder-to-receive-bill-on-statewide-tianeptine-sodium-ban https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/michigan/articles/20...), one of the major base states for the Johnson & Johnson corp, which studied the substance (https://adisinsight.springer.com/drugs/800039841 https://adisinsight.springer.com/drugs/800039841) entering clinical trails for release here, but was dropped with no reasoning. Before some talking-head chimes in that tianeptine is a μ-opioid receptor, read the atypical part and addiction data in countries where it has been prescribed widely. It is the only drug which effectively treats my depression and anxiety, it is generic so large drug companies cannot make an exorbitant profit off of it, and they are keeping it from the US through media scare-tactics, like Kratom, to ensure their profitability and the reception of their patented drugs like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esketamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esketamine. We should stop them.

bfuller 8y ago
Tianeptine is a lot different than kratom though. I know it works really well for some people, but its abuse potential is far higher than kratom. I could never have it around, no matter how well it treats depression, because as a former opiate addict having something cheap and legal that feels pretty much the same as oxycodone (in massive doses compared to its therapeutic dose) is a recipe for disaster. If only tianeptine could be made available in the correct (12.5mg) doses, prescribed by a doctor, maybe I could use it. But as it stands, buying powder by the gram would lead to my demise.
- Zooper 8y ago
  Thank you for that input; yes, the solution is a narrow bridge that has to balance the needs of people who use it as medicine with the potential for addiction (especially in the case of previous opiate dependency). This balancing act, though, gets severely unbalanced in the presence of profit incentives, leading to the media maximization of the addiction potential (or any negative really).