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It bothers me that in all the hype about Kratom the fact it does produce dependence is obscured. I know a few folks who have had a terrible time getting off of

It bothers me that in all the hype about Kratom the fact it does produce dependence is obscured. I know a few folks who have had a terrible time getting off of Kratom. Only one of which is totally free of it. All of their cases were similar, going from a small brew a day the first week to doing 6-10g a day within weeks. People I know who still take it regularly remind me of addicts to other substances - claiming they can quit at any time but since they aren't having a problem they don't choose to quit. Yet they also constantly crave Kratom and freak out when they can't get it. Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. That still doesn't excuse the unrelenting hype that Kratom is safe and that it isn't addictive.

refurb 8y ago
It does produce dependence if taken often enough. However, compared to the harm caused by illicit opioids (or even prescription opioids) doesn’t this seem like a low priority? So someone is spending $100 or $200 per month on their kratom. They aren’t committing crimes to pay for it, they aren’t overdosing and dying in the street and they aren’t getting diseases by sharing needles. It doesn’t seem like a major health cocern. Kind of like tobacco without the second hand smoke or lung cancer. Sure it would be better if people didn’t do it, but that’s true of a lot of things.
- woah 8y ago
  You would see the same level of harm reduction if other opiates were legal. My guess is that what makes kratom less harmful is the legal status.
  - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
    False. Kratom (mitragyna speciosa) is unique in that it does not seem to trigger respiratory depression. So it’s not just the legal status. However it is true that drugs like heroin (when pure) are quite safe overall - aside from the respiratory depresssion overdose scenario.
    - GW150914 8y ago
      Does Kratom have other undesirable side effects? How is it on the liver? If the population present opiate users switched to Kratom, what would we see?
      - pault 8y ago
        Instant end to opiate overdose deaths, for one.
      - scoggs 8y ago
        I've heard it causes pretty significant constipation in some cases. I guess that's undesirable.
        GordonS 8y ago
        It does cause some constipation, but it's nothing compared to that caused by even 'weak' opioids like tramadol or dihydrocodeine.
    - callmekit 8y ago
      Wikipedia explicitly mentions respiratory depression as a side effect of kratom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa I haven't checked their sources, though.
      - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
        It may be a side effect of taking huge amounts of extract, but is not possible when consuming the leaves, as far as I know. I’ve known people who claim to take an ounce (28g) of leave per day without issue. (I take btw 2-8 grams in a day myself so I can’t speak to higher doses) In general taking excessive amounts triggers vomiting, similar to when you eat too many psilocybin mushrooms (well, some say it’s ideal to vomit shroom-wise, but I’m not a fan). So mitragyna speciosa is incredibly safe. Unfortunately Wikipedia’s treatment of the topic could be improved, but there is very little existing literature out there. I read one review study I was pretty happy with but I’m not on a laptop so i can’t go dig up the link unfortunately
  - slfnflctd 8y ago
    Somewhat true, but that's only part of the picture. An extremely significant distinction is that, much like with cannabis, it is pretty much physically impossible to overdose to death on mitragyna speciosa by itself. It will make you feel terrible to the point of being non-functional, but it almost certainly will not kill you.
    - ianai 8y ago
      So it’s a painkiller that works as well as an opiate with a maximum dose that dwarfs the opiates. Sheesh. That alone should be enough to research its use for pain management
      - Jarwain 8y ago
        Back when the potential kratom ban was scaring everyone, I remember seeing a sign advertising clinical trials for those dealing with opioid addiction. The cynic in me wondered whether the trials were for some medication that mimicked kratom or any individual alkaloid
  - JamesBarney 8y ago
    I don't think it has the same binding affinity as more powerful opiods which reduces it's addictive potential, as well the risk of overdose.
    - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
      It activates mu-opioid quite strongly but not the other receptors as much (I forget their names). Interestingly, it has a mix of opioid antagonists and agonists. I’m not sure if that specifically is why tolerance doesn’t build aggressively, or if it’s some other MoA like nmda receptor antagonism
  - DanBC 8y ago
    > You would see the same level of harm reduction if other opiates were legal We see huge harm from legal opioids which are widely mis-prescribed. They cause addiction and fail to treat the pain for which they are prescribed.
- olliej 8y ago
  No particular opinion on kratom, but the problem historically with other drugs that produce a dependence is the dependence can exceed the amount someone can afford. The politician argument is that this will make them steal, etc So I’d be careful with “only $x a month” as an argument. Anyway if it is addictive it’s hard to imagine it being more addictive than oxycodone and that is totally legal and aggressively pushed by companies that know exactly how addictive it is, so mostly this goes back to the standard government motto of only making drugs legal if large companies can make a huge profit off it. Anything that can be easily grown by average consumers (like weed) doesn’t meet that requirement and so tends to be illegal.
- picsao 8y ago
  It's new the new thing is always the horror. Why can't people ruin theire life's with gin like they used too.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
My understanding was that kratom was more useful for harm reduction, rather than curing addiction, as it's still addictive but much less harmful than heroin. It's similar to vaping or nicotine gum in that respect.
- thatcat 8y ago
  Nicotine gum actually uses a different metabolic pathway to uptake the nicotine which is less addictive than inhaling nicotine.
  - krrrh 8y ago
    More precisely, there is a theory that nicotine becomes highly addictive in the presence of an MAOI which are naturally present in tobacco smoke, but not added to nicotine gum.
    - thatcat 8y ago
      I was actually referring to inhalation vs ingestion; specifically how inhalation has a 10-20 second lag before the effects are noticeable whereas ingestion takes much longer - resulting in less behavioral reinforcement. The MAOI theory is interesting, there are a lot of alkaloids in tobacco. Apparently nicotine uptake across alveoli membranes is very pH dependent - the ionic form won't cross the barrier. Cigarette smoke is cured at a high temp and has a low pH, pipe tobacco is cured at room temp and has a high pH. [0] It seems that cigarettes are processed to specifically give a minimal dose per volume inhaled that quickly delivers nicotine as a way to maximize reinforcement behavior. I would be interesting to test the pH of commercial vaporization solutions. [0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953858/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953858/
      - krrrh 8y ago
        Super interesting. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
bfuller 8y ago
So because some people are idiots others should have to suffer? Kratom literally saved my life. I was hopelessly addicted to opioids and went from shooting heroin to ingesting plant matter. I agree that the opiate naive shouldn't stupidly throw themselves into opiate addiction but the idea that because some people can't handle themselves I should have to suffer is ridiculous.
- dsr_ 8y ago
  Just to be clear -- heroin is processed morphine, which comes from poppy sap. Cocaine is processed coca leaves. Nicotine is primarily extracted from tobacco leaves. Belladonna, strychnine and digitalis... just because something is made from a plant doesn't make it less of a drug or less dangerous.
  - slfnflctd 8y ago
    The most dangerous drugs aren't really comparable, though. They tend to be processed concentrates of the plant, and in those cases the plant itself is much less harmful than the concentrate. Consuming plant matter directly with minimal processing is quite a different thing from isolating the active ingredients as much as possible, creating dosages much higher than found in nature and simultaneously removing buffering material such as fiber and other nutrients.
  - bfuller 8y ago
    Are you saying kratom is as dangerous as heroin? If not why post this?
    - ryanmercer 8y ago
      They are saying just because it grew out of the ground doesn't mean it is safe. I found that pretty clear.
      - bfuller 8y ago
        And how does that relate to what I posted? I clearly was not saying any plant is safe, I was comparing heroin and kratom.
crazydoggers 8y ago
> Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. I’m not quite sure it’s fair to lump all those drugs under addictive... Xanax is a benzodiazepine, but Prozac is an SSRI. Both can cause withdrawal symptoms if you stop too quickly, but neither are really classified as addictive. Some of these drugs also profoundly impact people’s lives for the positive as well as actually save lives from severe depression. The constant idea that these drugs are somehow dangerous does much more harm than good to those who need it. For some reason people have no issue with drugs like Nexium for heartburn (which can also cause dependence) but if it’s a drug that effects your brain... it’s labeled as evil. And to clarify, addictive substances are not defined simply as something that causes withdrawal. Lots of things cause withdrawal... Tylenol can cause rebound headaches, heartburn medicine can cause intensified heartburn, etc. True addictives on the other hand also cause reward and reinforcement behavior. The strong reward stimulus effects molecular transcription factors that result in reinforcement behavior, which drives the addiction (not fear of withdrawal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction#Mechanisms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction#Mechanisms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_dependence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_dependence
- DanBC 8y ago
  Benzos cause dependence, and your link says this.
  - crazydoggers 8y ago
    Dependency is different than addictive behavior. If you read the whole page, it goes into more detail: “Addiction, or what is sometimes referred to as psychological dependence, includes people misusing or craving the drug not to relieve withdrawal symptoms, but to experience its euphoric or intoxicating effects.” Also if you read the link on addiction you’ll note that benzos are not listed as drugs that elicits true addictive behavior. Can you become dependent on benzos... yes that’s possible. But people typically don’t seek out ever increasing doses to get high, which is an important distinction. And people who abuse them are often self medicating due to untreated anxiety disorders rather than to party or get high. Stigmatizing medicine like SSRI and Benzodiazepines as addictive like opiates is misleading and harmful. Benzodiazepines, if used under a doctors supervision and for limited duration, almost never cause dependence. Opiates on the other hand, even short term doses, can lead some individuals to become quickly addicted and start drug seeking behavior. Doesn’t mean benzos are totally safe all the time, but it’s just not fair to compare it to opiates or Kratom.
trdtaylor1 8y ago
And so do video game addicts. Just because something is dependence inducing doesn't mean it should be ever illegal. If Kratom addicts start robbing convenience stores and offering blowies for Kratom cash i'll believe it.
- dictum 8y ago
  > If Kratom addicts start robbing convenience stores and offering blowies for Kratom cash i'll believe it This has very little to do with the properties of a drug itself, and more to do with the demographics (poverty, unemployment, overall disenfranchisement, environmental factors like urban density and access to services) of people who use other drugs; specically, that usage of these substances often correlates with such disenfranchisement. In other words, the people currently using Kratom may not be the same people using other drugs, and their circumstances may be different. (Not a comment on Kratom, which I don't know much about, besides its popularity in some websites)
- extralego 8y ago
  Yeah. And even then, that would have to be a result of both addiction and the state drug war. Without the latter, the stuff is extremely affordable. I was curious if it would help with anxiety so I ordered about $8 of it, which was about 2 sandwich bags stuffed full of it! It made me feel physically nauscious for the entire morning and I took a very small amount. But I don’t think I would have been impaired driving. Drivers on opioids frighten the crap out of me.
  - scoggs 8y ago
    > Drivers on opioids frighten the crap out of me. Is there any reason you personally feel that way or is it more of "opioids are strong and dangerous so I figure people driving on them is dangerous"?
    - DanBC 8y ago
      We know that opioids impair ability to drive.
chriscappuccio 8y ago
Prozac/SSRIs are not like Xanax or even Kratom. They are very useful for withdrawal periods. Just don't take them for years at a time...
damienkatz 8y ago
Anecdote: about 2-3 years ago I was using about 10g/day kratom and 1gm/day caffeine to deal with chronic fatigue and muscle pain. I was dependent on both for about 12 months just to function (without them I had a hard time getting out of bed or anything done). But the combo helped to finally get regular exercise, which helped with sleep, which helped me to heal. The caffeine was _much_ harder to kick than the kratom. A full week of headaches and fatigue due to caffeine withdrawal. When people talk of kratom being bad because it produces dependency, why don’t they talk of caffeine in the same way? What real negative effects does the kratom have if used long term? My experience says there is none. And all this handwringing is simply due to lack of familiarity.
- tzahola 8y ago
  1g of caffeine? That's like 25 cups of espresso. Have you had a cardiologic exam beforehand?
  - damienkatz 8y ago
    Its high, but it’s really not that excessive over the course of a day: https://cspinet.org/eating-healthy/ingredients-of-concern/caffeine-chart https://cspinet.org/eating-healthy/ingredients-of-concern/ca...
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      TIL Starbucks coffee has a ton of caffeine. This explains why I'm super jittery every time I get Starbucks even though I drink (non-Starbucks) coffee every day. So yeah, two freaking massive 20oz pours of highly caffeinated coffee will get you to around 1 gram. But FWIW the daily recommended dose is 400mg. 1g is a ton of caffeine and way beyond what you would get to by sipping on coffee throughout the day (it's 10+ cups of drip).
      - ianai 8y ago
        I don’t know where you got 400mg/day. Last I checked it’s 160 mg/day.
stcredzero 8y ago
People I know who still take it regularly remind me of addicts to other substances - claiming they can quit at any time but since they aren't having a problem they don't choose to quit. Is it worse than coffee?
prolikewh0a 8y ago
>going from a small brew a day the first week to doing 6-10g a day within weeks. At small doses Kratom is somewhat of a stimulant. 6-10G is where opiate effects start kicking in, so I'd say doing 6-10G is perfectly normal for Kratom usage.
udp 8y ago
> Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. Xanax is a benzo and is addictive, but Prozac is an SSRI. SSRIs are not addictive, and aren't even interesting recreationally because they don't make you feel anything good.
- stordoff 8y ago
  > SSRIs are not addictive, and aren't even interesting recreationally because they don't make you feel anything good. And are distinctly unpleasant at higher doses. They can be addictive though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressant_discontinuation_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressant_discontinuation... (at least in that they can cause withdrawal when stopped).
Fnoord 8y ago
Check its legal status in Malaysia and Thailand. [1] Furthermore, some drugs such as khat, betel nut, or coca are mildly stimulating and used heavily in certain cultures throughout the world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa#Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa#Regulation

refurb 8y ago

It does produce dependence if taken often enough. However, compared to the harm caused by illicit opioids (or even prescription opioids) doesn’t this seem like a low priority? So someone is spending $100 or $200 per month on their kratom. They aren’t committing crimes to pay for it, they aren’t overdosing and dying in the street and they aren’t getting diseases by sharing needles. It doesn’t seem like a major health cocern. Kind of like tobacco without the second hand smoke or lung cancer. Sure it would be better if people didn’t do it, but that’s true of a lot of things.

woah 8y ago
You would see the same level of harm reduction if other opiates were legal. My guess is that what makes kratom less harmful is the legal status.
- __blockcipher__ 8y ago
  False. Kratom (mitragyna speciosa) is unique in that it does not seem to trigger respiratory depression. So it’s not just the legal status. However it is true that drugs like heroin (when pure) are quite safe overall - aside from the respiratory depresssion overdose scenario.
  - GW150914 8y ago
    Does Kratom have other undesirable side effects? How is it on the liver? If the population present opiate users switched to Kratom, what would we see?
    - pault 8y ago
      Instant end to opiate overdose deaths, for one.
    - scoggs 8y ago
      I've heard it causes pretty significant constipation in some cases. I guess that's undesirable.
      - GordonS 8y ago
        It does cause some constipation, but it's nothing compared to that caused by even 'weak' opioids like tramadol or dihydrocodeine.
  - callmekit 8y ago
    Wikipedia explicitly mentions respiratory depression as a side effect of kratom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa I haven't checked their sources, though.
    - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
      It may be a side effect of taking huge amounts of extract, but is not possible when consuming the leaves, as far as I know. I’ve known people who claim to take an ounce (28g) of leave per day without issue. (I take btw 2-8 grams in a day myself so I can’t speak to higher doses) In general taking excessive amounts triggers vomiting, similar to when you eat too many psilocybin mushrooms (well, some say it’s ideal to vomit shroom-wise, but I’m not a fan). So mitragyna speciosa is incredibly safe. Unfortunately Wikipedia’s treatment of the topic could be improved, but there is very little existing literature out there. I read one review study I was pretty happy with but I’m not on a laptop so i can’t go dig up the link unfortunately
- slfnflctd 8y ago
  Somewhat true, but that's only part of the picture. An extremely significant distinction is that, much like with cannabis, it is pretty much physically impossible to overdose to death on mitragyna speciosa by itself. It will make you feel terrible to the point of being non-functional, but it almost certainly will not kill you.
  - ianai 8y ago
    So it’s a painkiller that works as well as an opiate with a maximum dose that dwarfs the opiates. Sheesh. That alone should be enough to research its use for pain management
    - Jarwain 8y ago
      Back when the potential kratom ban was scaring everyone, I remember seeing a sign advertising clinical trials for those dealing with opioid addiction. The cynic in me wondered whether the trials were for some medication that mimicked kratom or any individual alkaloid
- JamesBarney 8y ago
  I don't think it has the same binding affinity as more powerful opiods which reduces it's addictive potential, as well the risk of overdose.
  - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
    It activates mu-opioid quite strongly but not the other receptors as much (I forget their names). Interestingly, it has a mix of opioid antagonists and agonists. I’m not sure if that specifically is why tolerance doesn’t build aggressively, or if it’s some other MoA like nmda receptor antagonism
- DanBC 8y ago
  > You would see the same level of harm reduction if other opiates were legal We see huge harm from legal opioids which are widely mis-prescribed. They cause addiction and fail to treat the pain for which they are prescribed.
olliej 8y ago
No particular opinion on kratom, but the problem historically with other drugs that produce a dependence is the dependence can exceed the amount someone can afford. The politician argument is that this will make them steal, etc So I’d be careful with “only $x a month” as an argument. Anyway if it is addictive it’s hard to imagine it being more addictive than oxycodone and that is totally legal and aggressively pushed by companies that know exactly how addictive it is, so mostly this goes back to the standard government motto of only making drugs legal if large companies can make a huge profit off it. Anything that can be easily grown by average consumers (like weed) doesn’t meet that requirement and so tends to be illegal.
picsao 8y ago
It's new the new thing is always the horror. Why can't people ruin theire life's with gin like they used too.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

My understanding was that kratom was more useful for harm reduction, rather than curing addiction, as it's still addictive but much less harmful than heroin. It's similar to vaping or nicotine gum in that respect.

thatcat 8y ago
Nicotine gum actually uses a different metabolic pathway to uptake the nicotine which is less addictive than inhaling nicotine.
- krrrh 8y ago
  More precisely, there is a theory that nicotine becomes highly addictive in the presence of an MAOI which are naturally present in tobacco smoke, but not added to nicotine gum.
  - thatcat 8y ago
    I was actually referring to inhalation vs ingestion; specifically how inhalation has a 10-20 second lag before the effects are noticeable whereas ingestion takes much longer - resulting in less behavioral reinforcement. The MAOI theory is interesting, there are a lot of alkaloids in tobacco. Apparently nicotine uptake across alveoli membranes is very pH dependent - the ionic form won't cross the barrier. Cigarette smoke is cured at a high temp and has a low pH, pipe tobacco is cured at room temp and has a high pH. [0] It seems that cigarettes are processed to specifically give a minimal dose per volume inhaled that quickly delivers nicotine as a way to maximize reinforcement behavior. I would be interesting to test the pH of commercial vaporization solutions. [0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953858/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953858/
    - krrrh 8y ago
      Super interesting. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

bfuller 8y ago

So because some people are idiots others should have to suffer? Kratom literally saved my life. I was hopelessly addicted to opioids and went from shooting heroin to ingesting plant matter. I agree that the opiate naive shouldn't stupidly throw themselves into opiate addiction but the idea that because some people can't handle themselves I should have to suffer is ridiculous.

dsr_ 8y ago
Just to be clear -- heroin is processed morphine, which comes from poppy sap. Cocaine is processed coca leaves. Nicotine is primarily extracted from tobacco leaves. Belladonna, strychnine and digitalis... just because something is made from a plant doesn't make it less of a drug or less dangerous.
- slfnflctd 8y ago
  The most dangerous drugs aren't really comparable, though. They tend to be processed concentrates of the plant, and in those cases the plant itself is much less harmful than the concentrate. Consuming plant matter directly with minimal processing is quite a different thing from isolating the active ingredients as much as possible, creating dosages much higher than found in nature and simultaneously removing buffering material such as fiber and other nutrients.
- bfuller 8y ago
  Are you saying kratom is as dangerous as heroin? If not why post this?
  - ryanmercer 8y ago
    They are saying just because it grew out of the ground doesn't mean it is safe. I found that pretty clear.
    - bfuller 8y ago
      And how does that relate to what I posted? I clearly was not saying any plant is safe, I was comparing heroin and kratom.

crazydoggers 8y ago

> Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. I’m not quite sure it’s fair to lump all those drugs under addictive... Xanax is a benzodiazepine, but Prozac is an SSRI. Both can cause withdrawal symptoms if you stop too quickly, but neither are really classified as addictive. Some of these drugs also profoundly impact people’s lives for the positive as well as actually save lives from severe depression. The constant idea that these drugs are somehow dangerous does much more harm than good to those who need it. For some reason people have no issue with drugs like Nexium for heartburn (which can also cause dependence) but if it’s a drug that effects your brain... it’s labeled as evil. And to clarify, addictive substances are not defined simply as something that causes withdrawal. Lots of things cause withdrawal... Tylenol can cause rebound headaches, heartburn medicine can cause intensified heartburn, etc. True addictives on the other hand also cause reward and reinforcement behavior. The strong reward stimulus effects molecular transcription factors that result in reinforcement behavior, which drives the addiction (not fear of withdrawal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction#Mechanisms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction#Mechanisms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_dependence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_dependence

DanBC 8y ago
Benzos cause dependence, and your link says this.
- crazydoggers 8y ago
  Dependency is different than addictive behavior. If you read the whole page, it goes into more detail: “Addiction, or what is sometimes referred to as psychological dependence, includes people misusing or craving the drug not to relieve withdrawal symptoms, but to experience its euphoric or intoxicating effects.” Also if you read the link on addiction you’ll note that benzos are not listed as drugs that elicits true addictive behavior. Can you become dependent on benzos... yes that’s possible. But people typically don’t seek out ever increasing doses to get high, which is an important distinction. And people who abuse them are often self medicating due to untreated anxiety disorders rather than to party or get high. Stigmatizing medicine like SSRI and Benzodiazepines as addictive like opiates is misleading and harmful. Benzodiazepines, if used under a doctors supervision and for limited duration, almost never cause dependence. Opiates on the other hand, even short term doses, can lead some individuals to become quickly addicted and start drug seeking behavior. Doesn’t mean benzos are totally safe all the time, but it’s just not fair to compare it to opiates or Kratom.

trdtaylor1 8y ago

And so do video game addicts. Just because something is dependence inducing doesn't mean it should be ever illegal. If Kratom addicts start robbing convenience stores and offering blowies for Kratom cash i'll believe it.

dictum 8y ago
> If Kratom addicts start robbing convenience stores and offering blowies for Kratom cash i'll believe it This has very little to do with the properties of a drug itself, and more to do with the demographics (poverty, unemployment, overall disenfranchisement, environmental factors like urban density and access to services) of people who use other drugs; specically, that usage of these substances often correlates with such disenfranchisement. In other words, the people currently using Kratom may not be the same people using other drugs, and their circumstances may be different. (Not a comment on Kratom, which I don't know much about, besides its popularity in some websites)
extralego 8y ago
Yeah. And even then, that would have to be a result of both addiction and the state drug war. Without the latter, the stuff is extremely affordable. I was curious if it would help with anxiety so I ordered about $8 of it, which was about 2 sandwich bags stuffed full of it! It made me feel physically nauscious for the entire morning and I took a very small amount. But I don’t think I would have been impaired driving. Drivers on opioids frighten the crap out of me.
- scoggs 8y ago
  > Drivers on opioids frighten the crap out of me. Is there any reason you personally feel that way or is it more of "opioids are strong and dangerous so I figure people driving on them is dangerous"?
  - DanBC 8y ago
    We know that opioids impair ability to drive.

chriscappuccio 8y ago

Prozac/SSRIs are not like Xanax or even Kratom. They are very useful for withdrawal periods. Just don't take them for years at a time...

damienkatz 8y ago

Anecdote: about 2-3 years ago I was using about 10g/day kratom and 1gm/day caffeine to deal with chronic fatigue and muscle pain. I was dependent on both for about 12 months just to function (without them I had a hard time getting out of bed or anything done). But the combo helped to finally get regular exercise, which helped with sleep, which helped me to heal. The caffeine was _much_ harder to kick than the kratom. A full week of headaches and fatigue due to caffeine withdrawal. When people talk of kratom being bad because it produces dependency, why don’t they talk of caffeine in the same way? What real negative effects does the kratom have if used long term? My experience says there is none. And all this handwringing is simply due to lack of familiarity.

tzahola 8y ago
1g of caffeine? That's like 25 cups of espresso. Have you had a cardiologic exam beforehand?
- damienkatz 8y ago
  Its high, but it’s really not that excessive over the course of a day: https://cspinet.org/eating-healthy/ingredients-of-concern/caffeine-chart https://cspinet.org/eating-healthy/ingredients-of-concern/ca...
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    TIL Starbucks coffee has a ton of caffeine. This explains why I'm super jittery every time I get Starbucks even though I drink (non-Starbucks) coffee every day. So yeah, two freaking massive 20oz pours of highly caffeinated coffee will get you to around 1 gram. But FWIW the daily recommended dose is 400mg. 1g is a ton of caffeine and way beyond what you would get to by sipping on coffee throughout the day (it's 10+ cups of drip).
    - ianai 8y ago
      I don’t know where you got 400mg/day. Last I checked it’s 160 mg/day.

stcredzero 8y ago

People I know who still take it regularly remind me of addicts to other substances - claiming they can quit at any time but since they aren't having a problem they don't choose to quit. Is it worse than coffee?

prolikewh0a 8y ago

>going from a small brew a day the first week to doing 6-10g a day within weeks. At small doses Kratom is somewhat of a stimulant. 6-10G is where opiate effects start kicking in, so I'd say doing 6-10G is perfectly normal for Kratom usage.

udp 8y ago

> Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. Xanax is a benzo and is addictive, but Prozac is an SSRI. SSRIs are not addictive, and aren't even interesting recreationally because they don't make you feel anything good.

stordoff 8y ago
> SSRIs are not addictive, and aren't even interesting recreationally because they don't make you feel anything good. And are distinctly unpleasant at higher doses. They can be addictive though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressant_discontinuation_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressant_discontinuation... (at least in that they can cause withdrawal when stopped).

Fnoord 8y ago

Check its legal status in Malaysia and Thailand. [1] Furthermore, some drugs such as khat, betel nut, or coca are mildly stimulating and used heavily in certain cultures throughout the world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa#Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa#Regulation