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> By exercising our free will. By having the courage to stand up and say Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of

> By exercising our free will. By having the courage to stand up and say Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? That was well over 15 years ago. I am doing my part actually. I've had the "courage" to talk to management countless times in my career about what I think the best choices would be to improve quality. I don't even think it takes courage. It's just a conversation and attempt to sell an idea. Happens all the time in business. Do you think my description of the challenges around getting change to happen were more accurate than the parent's "the belief that this is futile is a self-fulfilling prophecy."? I hardly think my comment claims it's futile when I concluded with being hopeful that change has and is happening.

lisper 8y ago
> Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? No, but the bulk of your comment sounded pretty defeatist to me: "These choices are rarely made by developers" "No one ever got fired for using Java" "Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices?" "It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity." It's true: a single person's decision to stand up against the system is unlikely to have an effect. But if everyone makes that choice, it will have an effect. And that is more likely to happen if more people stand up and say that you should make that choice rather than whine about they tried and failed.
- tchaffee 8y ago
  Being realistic about what you are up against is not defeatist. Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation? And I also mentioned where I think the promising opportunities are coming from.
  - lisper 8y ago
    Realism and defeatism are not mutually exclusive. That's the thing about self-fulfilling prophecies: if you believe in them, then they are actually true.
    - tchaffee 8y ago
      You haven't yet answered any of my questions. Since this doesn't seem like a conversation but more like you trying to take my comments in the most ungenerous way possible, I'm going to stop here. But if you want to answer some of my questions and discuss the massive challenges around changing the global dev culture I'll be happy to continue.
      - lisper 8y ago
        > You haven't yet answered any of my questions. That's because you're asking the wrong questions. "Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation?" Those are the wrong questions. The answers to those questions don't get you any closer to a solution to the problem. They only get you to the conclusion that the situation is hopeless and that you should give up. OK, you want an answer? It is both you and the situation that is negative. But the reason that the situation is negative is because of people like you who have decided that the situation is negative and that the only reasonable thing to do is to give up. And you know what? You're right. That is the only reasonable thing to do. Which means that the only way to solve the problem is to be a little unreasonable and carry on despite the fact that it makes no sense. That's why I'm doing things like this: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib
        tchaffee 8y ago
        I haven't given up. You've still refused to acknowledge that my very first post talked about where I think the promise is coming from. Universities and young programmers who have learned and embraced functional programming. If you think you have the right answers to change a globe full of programmers and to make businesses focus more on software quality, then by all means you should go on to prove to the world you are right. I'll continue to assess the situation realistically and do my thing. I've never once failed to point out to management when I think things are being done poorly. I'm often the new guy on the team who starts measuring and reporting tech debt to management. You're super quick to judge a stranger based on a few comments in a forum. When I put the concerns of the company first (instead of being idealist and obsessive about quality as the only goal that ever matters) management takes what I say seriously. So when I do speak up about quality they listen. That's my path. Fine that yours is different. Maybe if you asked more questions and attacked less you'd find that those who you think are your enemies are actually allies and just have a different idea about the best way to improve things.

lisper 8y ago

> Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? No, but the bulk of your comment sounded pretty defeatist to me: "These choices are rarely made by developers" "No one ever got fired for using Java" "Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices?" "It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity." It's true: a single person's decision to stand up against the system is unlikely to have an effect. But if everyone makes that choice, it will have an effect. And that is more likely to happen if more people stand up and say that you should make that choice rather than whine about they tried and failed.

tchaffee 8y ago
Being realistic about what you are up against is not defeatist. Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation? And I also mentioned where I think the promising opportunities are coming from.
- lisper 8y ago
  Realism and defeatism are not mutually exclusive. That's the thing about self-fulfilling prophecies: if you believe in them, then they are actually true.
  - tchaffee 8y ago
    You haven't yet answered any of my questions. Since this doesn't seem like a conversation but more like you trying to take my comments in the most ungenerous way possible, I'm going to stop here. But if you want to answer some of my questions and discuss the massive challenges around changing the global dev culture I'll be happy to continue.
    - lisper 8y ago
      > You haven't yet answered any of my questions. That's because you're asking the wrong questions. "Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation?" Those are the wrong questions. The answers to those questions don't get you any closer to a solution to the problem. They only get you to the conclusion that the situation is hopeless and that you should give up. OK, you want an answer? It is both you and the situation that is negative. But the reason that the situation is negative is because of people like you who have decided that the situation is negative and that the only reasonable thing to do is to give up. And you know what? You're right. That is the only reasonable thing to do. Which means that the only way to solve the problem is to be a little unreasonable and carry on despite the fact that it makes no sense. That's why I'm doing things like this: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib
      - tchaffee 8y ago
        I haven't given up. You've still refused to acknowledge that my very first post talked about where I think the promise is coming from. Universities and young programmers who have learned and embraced functional programming. If you think you have the right answers to change a globe full of programmers and to make businesses focus more on software quality, then by all means you should go on to prove to the world you are right. I'll continue to assess the situation realistically and do my thing. I've never once failed to point out to management when I think things are being done poorly. I'm often the new guy on the team who starts measuring and reporting tech debt to management. You're super quick to judge a stranger based on a few comments in a forum. When I put the concerns of the company first (instead of being idealist and obsessive about quality as the only goal that ever matters) management takes what I say seriously. So when I do speak up about quality they listen. That's my path. Fine that yours is different. Maybe if you asked more questions and attacked less you'd find that those who you think are your enemies are actually allies and just have a different idea about the best way to improve things.