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My state has a network of community and technical colleges. There is a program that allows one to get their Associates degree through community colleges, then t

My state has a network of community and technical colleges. There is a program that allows one to get their Associates degree through community colleges, then transfer to a state school and continue paying community college tuition. 10 years ago, this allowed for earning an engineering degree for $2k a year, or $8-10k. In my experience, community colleges were very much viewed as remedial. I’d guess that many of the classes were taken by students who had failed the equivalent class at university. I took Physics at both the community college and university (I was afraid that the community college class would not prepare me for later classes). The differences were stark: At university, lecture was 3x a week by the professor (who did not speak English), recitation by a TA (who did not speak English), and lab by another TA. There were 3 sections with 400 students per section. The professor had one hour of office hours for all 400 students in my section. At community college, my professor lectured, ran the lab, ran recitation. He went to a top 5 school, was an American, and was a great teacher. The class had 2 sections of 30 students. He ran weekend reviews for tests, if needed, and had open office hours all day. His tests were very difficult and required mastery of the subject matter. I dropped the university class after I realized it was of much lower quality than what I had already received, for 1/5th the price, no less.

monocularvision 8y ago
Incredible that I had the exact same thing happen to me, including the class: Physics. My CC years were almost always superior education wise over university.
ransom1538 8y ago
This. I took a course for fun at a local community college: physics. There was nothing more fascinating learning physics from someone that did accident reconstructions for 30 years. It is a different feel than being lectured to by someone that hasn't finished their graduate program. Then for fun I tried again: Oracle. My teacher? A former executive at WellsFargo and Oracle. He was extremely wealthy, and taught for fun - he did not publish some book or beg for grants.
- drpgq 8y ago
  Yeah but how much did the community college teacher publish?
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    How is publishing relevant to teaching?
    - taneq 8y ago
      I think that was the point. University lecturers are judged on their publication rate, not their teaching, so their teaching is sometimes awful.
      - eanzenberg 8y ago
        That's been my experience.
      - noxToken 8y ago
        This hit a little too close to home. Interestingly enough, those professors at my alma mater who were abysmal at teaching and lecturing but pulling millions in grants listened to the course feedback cards. They took it to heart that we had been uninterested* in the way the course was presented, couldn't grasp the material from the lessons, etc. We could see how their teaching methods evolved as we had them for upper level courses and electives. According to interns, those are some of the best professors that are currently on staff. Irrelevant note: I originally used disinterested, but those words do not have the same meaning: > An uninterested person is bored, unconcerned, or indifferent; a disinterested person is impartial, unbiased, or has no stake in the outcome.*[0] [0]: https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/disinterested-versus-uninterested https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/disinter...
- MoBattah 8y ago
  Where was this?
lowken10 8y ago
That was my experience. I went from the local community college to the top University in the state (currently a top 10 ranked public University) and found the the teachers at the community college were in most cases superior to the University professors.
goodells 8y ago
I just finished my undergrad at a traditional four-year university in the United States and this is spot on. The language problem you mention is very real - I have taken classes with professors who are almost incomprehensible when speaking English. In some of my computer science lectures it was not uncommon for a student to ask the professor a question and for him to answer it in a language other than English, which doesn't seem fair.
Buldak 8y ago
I went to a liberal arts college and a lot of the virtues of community college mentioned in this thread remind me of my own experience (smaller class sizes, broader curricula, professors dedicated to teaching rather than research). Well, except price, anyway.
Tycho 8y ago
Not surprising really. The big schools skim off the top student talent, brand them with a degree, place them in top jobs, and repeat the cycle. There's no particular pressure for them to be great educators.
bitwize 8y ago
> In my experience, community colleges were very much viewed as remedial. "Community college is like a disco with books. Here's $10, let me go get my learn on!" --Chris Rock Despite not being taken seriously as higher institutions, they're a godsend for focused, unconventional learning, and certainly an attractive alternative to for-profit bootcamps. State schools had many of the same advantages as CCs. I ended up graduating from state school; compared to the mid-tier private university I went to, the state school's profs were either clueless, or very interested in teaching.
moab 8y ago
I think university experiences are bi-modal. If you're going to an essentially unranked university with very poor professors/a non-existent graduate program, you'd probably be better off going to community college and saving an order of magnitude in tuition. On the other hand if you're going to a, say, top-25 school, the price tag is probably worth it and opens the door to graduate schools and research mentorship that you can't find anywhere else.
- swimfar 8y ago
  But if you do two years at a community college and then two years at one of your top-25 schools you get the same benefits. It's also generally easier to transfer into a university than it is to get accepted right out of high school.
  - alaxsxaq 8y ago
    I would be quite surprised if you found a top-25 school that would accept community college credits 1:1. I am familiar with one of the top liberal arts schools in the US and credit transfers are most often at the discretion of the department of your declared major - a professor at an "elite" liberal arts school is very unlikely to assign much value to community college credits. Of course, the ability to transfer of credits will vary immensely depending on the university and the community college - some of which are highly regarded. If you are planning this route and know the educational institutions you want to attend, it would be prudent to verify at the outset.
    - RandallBrown 8y ago
      The University of Michigan accepts community college credits. I transferred some math credits and had several friends do their first 2 years at a community college before transferring there. Not sure if you'd consider the University of Michigan a top 25 school, but at least one website has. http://www.businessinsider.com/best-colleges-in-the-us-infographic-2014-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/best-colleges-in-the-us-infog...
itronitron 8y ago
Way back in the 1990's, between undergrad and graduate school, I took introductory statistics, linear algebra, and 3 advanced calculus classes at night at a local CC which had ~4 different campuses in the metro area. It was mostly college or grad level students taking the courses for credit. Most of the professors had a separate, professional day job. Two were heads of their respective departments at the school. Based on my experience I would say that community colleges are great for learning the material, and universities are great for socializing and learning stuff outside of the classroom through self-directed interests (especially in graduate school).
srtjstjsj 8y ago
Having a "top 5" school grad (even at the bachelors level) teaching at a community college is extremely rare. Your case was not common.
- drawnwren 8y ago
  Warning N = 1, but I went to CC and there were plenty of Top 5 graduates working there. There are lots of reasons someone with a PhD from a top program might want to work at a community college. Passion for teaching, proximity to family, and much more flexible schedules are all reasons to choose to work at a CC over a 4 year.
- spamizbad 8y ago
  If we're talking "top 5" in the context of graduate programs for a given discipline it's likely not as rare as you'd think. I can see the PhD glut and general awfulness of academia (do postdocs and adjunct until a tenure-track opens up) pushing people from even high ranking programs into teaching at a CC. This is especially true if they're married or have an SO: It's hard to convince your partner to uproot their lives so you can work at some tenure track position at some no-name college in the middle of nowhere... or forgo tenure and get paid slightly less and have the option to actually live near family/friends/partner's career.
cbanek 8y ago
I had this same experience. I went to UIUC for Computer Engineering (I think it was #3 at the time), but my differential equations class was taught by someone with such a thick german accent it was impossible to understand. At least 100 people in the class, and no TAs that I can remember. Failed that course. Took it over the summer at the local community college for much cheaper, and it was so much easier, smaller class (about 15), and then transferred the credit back to UIUC and didn't have to take it again at UIUC with the same professor who I couldn't understand the first time.
- rhino369 8y ago
  I had the professor too. I couldn’t understand him either. Somehow scraped by with a D+. I probably should have retaken it.
ratliffchrisb 8y ago
I had 400 level EE classes with a couple guys who came up through community colleges. They weren't always prepared for the classes. It was ironic because it wasn't they didn't understand the previous material, but because they hadn't dealt with poor instructors and didn't have the relationships of the previous 3 years studying with the same people. It was possible at the same university to walk into a lab and start working on joint projects with NASA, the NSA or local industry, where other local universities and community colleges don't offer as much in that regard. On the other hand those professors running the labs didn't really seem to care where the students came from, whether they were in high school or the community college up the road if they were willing to work.
DrScump 8y ago
I started at a community college and transferred to a state university, getting degrees at both, putting myself through the whole way while working. I don't remember anything noteworthy (in terms of professional stature) from any of the state university teachers (few bad, some quite good, but no real experts). In the CC, an instructor I had multiple times had a Doctorate, the old-school Certificate in Data Processing, and decades of industry experience. The best instructor I ever had in any discipline, whom I had for calculus, was at the CC. He authored several college math texts as well. Jack Minnick, you are greatly missed.
jdc0589 8y ago
man, reading these comments is REALLY validating my choice going to a small University. I was THE ONLY PERSON in my operating systems class, and most CS classes had less than 20 people. Unsurprisingly the school shut the department down, but it was GREAT.

monocularvision 8y ago

Incredible that I had the exact same thing happen to me, including the class: Physics. My CC years were almost always superior education wise over university.

ransom1538 8y ago

This. I took a course for fun at a local community college: physics. There was nothing more fascinating learning physics from someone that did accident reconstructions for 30 years. It is a different feel than being lectured to by someone that hasn't finished their graduate program. Then for fun I tried again: Oracle. My teacher? A former executive at WellsFargo and Oracle. He was extremely wealthy, and taught for fun - he did not publish some book or beg for grants.

drpgq 8y ago
Yeah but how much did the community college teacher publish?
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  How is publishing relevant to teaching?
  - taneq 8y ago
    I think that was the point. University lecturers are judged on their publication rate, not their teaching, so their teaching is sometimes awful.
    - eanzenberg 8y ago
      That's been my experience.
    - noxToken 8y ago
      This hit a little too close to home. Interestingly enough, those professors at my alma mater who were abysmal at teaching and lecturing but pulling millions in grants listened to the course feedback cards. They took it to heart that we had been uninterested* in the way the course was presented, couldn't grasp the material from the lessons, etc. We could see how their teaching methods evolved as we had them for upper level courses and electives. According to interns, those are some of the best professors that are currently on staff. Irrelevant note: I originally used disinterested, but those words do not have the same meaning: > An uninterested person is bored, unconcerned, or indifferent; a disinterested person is impartial, unbiased, or has no stake in the outcome.*[0] [0]: https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/disinterested-versus-uninterested https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/disinter...
MoBattah 8y ago
Where was this?

lowken10 8y ago

That was my experience. I went from the local community college to the top University in the state (currently a top 10 ranked public University) and found the the teachers at the community college were in most cases superior to the University professors.

goodells 8y ago

I just finished my undergrad at a traditional four-year university in the United States and this is spot on. The language problem you mention is very real - I have taken classes with professors who are almost incomprehensible when speaking English. In some of my computer science lectures it was not uncommon for a student to ask the professor a question and for him to answer it in a language other than English, which doesn't seem fair.

Buldak 8y ago

I went to a liberal arts college and a lot of the virtues of community college mentioned in this thread remind me of my own experience (smaller class sizes, broader curricula, professors dedicated to teaching rather than research). Well, except price, anyway.

Tycho 8y ago

Not surprising really. The big schools skim off the top student talent, brand them with a degree, place them in top jobs, and repeat the cycle. There's no particular pressure for them to be great educators.

bitwize 8y ago

> In my experience, community colleges were very much viewed as remedial. "Community college is like a disco with books. Here's $10, let me go get my learn on!" --Chris Rock Despite not being taken seriously as higher institutions, they're a godsend for focused, unconventional learning, and certainly an attractive alternative to for-profit bootcamps. State schools had many of the same advantages as CCs. I ended up graduating from state school; compared to the mid-tier private university I went to, the state school's profs were either clueless, or very interested in teaching.

moab 8y ago

I think university experiences are bi-modal. If you're going to an essentially unranked university with very poor professors/a non-existent graduate program, you'd probably be better off going to community college and saving an order of magnitude in tuition. On the other hand if you're going to a, say, top-25 school, the price tag is probably worth it and opens the door to graduate schools and research mentorship that you can't find anywhere else.

swimfar 8y ago
But if you do two years at a community college and then two years at one of your top-25 schools you get the same benefits. It's also generally easier to transfer into a university than it is to get accepted right out of high school.
- alaxsxaq 8y ago
  I would be quite surprised if you found a top-25 school that would accept community college credits 1:1. I am familiar with one of the top liberal arts schools in the US and credit transfers are most often at the discretion of the department of your declared major - a professor at an "elite" liberal arts school is very unlikely to assign much value to community college credits. Of course, the ability to transfer of credits will vary immensely depending on the university and the community college - some of which are highly regarded. If you are planning this route and know the educational institutions you want to attend, it would be prudent to verify at the outset.
  - RandallBrown 8y ago
    The University of Michigan accepts community college credits. I transferred some math credits and had several friends do their first 2 years at a community college before transferring there. Not sure if you'd consider the University of Michigan a top 25 school, but at least one website has. http://www.businessinsider.com/best-colleges-in-the-us-infographic-2014-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/best-colleges-in-the-us-infog...

itronitron 8y ago

Way back in the 1990's, between undergrad and graduate school, I took introductory statistics, linear algebra, and 3 advanced calculus classes at night at a local CC which had ~4 different campuses in the metro area. It was mostly college or grad level students taking the courses for credit. Most of the professors had a separate, professional day job. Two were heads of their respective departments at the school. Based on my experience I would say that community colleges are great for learning the material, and universities are great for socializing and learning stuff outside of the classroom through self-directed interests (especially in graduate school).

srtjstjsj 8y ago

Having a "top 5" school grad (even at the bachelors level) teaching at a community college is extremely rare. Your case was not common.

drawnwren 8y ago
Warning N = 1, but I went to CC and there were plenty of Top 5 graduates working there. There are lots of reasons someone with a PhD from a top program might want to work at a community college. Passion for teaching, proximity to family, and much more flexible schedules are all reasons to choose to work at a CC over a 4 year.
spamizbad 8y ago
If we're talking "top 5" in the context of graduate programs for a given discipline it's likely not as rare as you'd think. I can see the PhD glut and general awfulness of academia (do postdocs and adjunct until a tenure-track opens up) pushing people from even high ranking programs into teaching at a CC. This is especially true if they're married or have an SO: It's hard to convince your partner to uproot their lives so you can work at some tenure track position at some no-name college in the middle of nowhere... or forgo tenure and get paid slightly less and have the option to actually live near family/friends/partner's career.

cbanek 8y ago

I had this same experience. I went to UIUC for Computer Engineering (I think it was #3 at the time), but my differential equations class was taught by someone with such a thick german accent it was impossible to understand. At least 100 people in the class, and no TAs that I can remember. Failed that course. Took it over the summer at the local community college for much cheaper, and it was so much easier, smaller class (about 15), and then transferred the credit back to UIUC and didn't have to take it again at UIUC with the same professor who I couldn't understand the first time.

rhino369 8y ago
I had the professor too. I couldn’t understand him either. Somehow scraped by with a D+. I probably should have retaken it.

ratliffchrisb 8y ago

I had 400 level EE classes with a couple guys who came up through community colleges. They weren't always prepared for the classes. It was ironic because it wasn't they didn't understand the previous material, but because they hadn't dealt with poor instructors and didn't have the relationships of the previous 3 years studying with the same people. It was possible at the same university to walk into a lab and start working on joint projects with NASA, the NSA or local industry, where other local universities and community colleges don't offer as much in that regard. On the other hand those professors running the labs didn't really seem to care where the students came from, whether they were in high school or the community college up the road if they were willing to work.

DrScump 8y ago

I started at a community college and transferred to a state university, getting degrees at both, putting myself through the whole way while working. I don't remember anything noteworthy (in terms of professional stature) from any of the state university teachers (few bad, some quite good, but no real experts). In the CC, an instructor I had multiple times had a Doctorate, the old-school Certificate in Data Processing, and decades of industry experience. The best instructor I ever had in any discipline, whom I had for calculus, was at the CC. He authored several college math texts as well. Jack Minnick, you are greatly missed.

jdc0589 8y ago

man, reading these comments is REALLY validating my choice going to a small University. I was THE ONLY PERSON in my operating systems class, and most CS classes had less than 20 people. Unsurprisingly the school shut the department down, but it was GREAT.