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How could we make different choices? These choices are rarely made by developers unless it's their own startup. For most IT jobs these kinds of decisions are ma

How could we make different choices? These choices are rarely made by developers unless it's their own startup. For most IT jobs these kinds of decisions are made by upper management who have to answer to a board of directors, and ultimately to shareholders. No one ever got fired for using Java. (I personally quit C++ and Java many years ago because I thought both were a bit of a mess. Maybe things have improved with Java - I haven't followed it much). Upper IT management can't just say "we're switching to Haskell because fewer bugs". They have to sell the idea to the folks who will pay for those massive changes which include retraining existing employees. And management does take into consideration how big the hiring pool is. That affects costs. A surge in demand for Haskell programmers would of course create a higher cost for hiring and keeping them. So they continue to hire Java programmers and students graduating from uni make sure they know Java. Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices? Should students refuse jobs in Java? Or without picking on a language, jobs at companies that have the highest software quality standards? That's a lot of idealism and responsibility to ask of someone whose is just hoping they can get a foot in the door and start their career. Or is there someone else you have in mind that could be making different choices? It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity. There is far more at play than the "the belief that this is futile is a self-fulfilling prophecy" although I agree that too is a factor. I do have hope though. One thing I've seen happen is more and more programmers who were introduced to functional programming at uni and who manage to sneak ideas from that in wherever they can. I think we are slowly moving away from the worst parts of the object oriented paradigm and adopting the easier and better parts of functional programming. I'm looking forward to see what we end up with. So far, I think the evolution has headed in the right direction and we are getting better and better at this thing we call coding.

lisper 8y ago
> How could we make different choices? By exercising our free will. By having the courage to stand up and say, "Yeah, I get that we have a huge investment in Perl code, but Perl really sucks so how about we do this new project in Python instead? Or Scheme? Or Common Lisp?" Or, "Yeah, I get that we can get it done faster by doing it in Java, but that will incur a huge amount of technical debt, and also make it so that the really cool kids, the ones who get why Java sucks, won't want to work for us. So how about we make an investment in our future and try Clojure or Scala or Rust instead?" If enough people do that, eventually one of these overtures will get a green light. Whatever organization does that first will eventually accrue a competitive advantage, and that will in the fullness of time change the dynamic. But it won't happen if no one even tries.
- tchaffee 8y ago
  > By exercising our free will. By having the courage to stand up and say Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? That was well over 15 years ago. I am doing my part actually. I've had the "courage" to talk to management countless times in my career about what I think the best choices would be to improve quality. I don't even think it takes courage. It's just a conversation and attempt to sell an idea. Happens all the time in business. Do you think my description of the challenges around getting change to happen were more accurate than the parent's "the belief that this is futile is a self-fulfilling prophecy."? I hardly think my comment claims it's futile when I concluded with being hopeful that change has and is happening.
  - lisper 8y ago
    > Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? No, but the bulk of your comment sounded pretty defeatist to me: "These choices are rarely made by developers" "No one ever got fired for using Java" "Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices?" "It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity." It's true: a single person's decision to stand up against the system is unlikely to have an effect. But if everyone makes that choice, it will have an effect. And that is more likely to happen if more people stand up and say that you should make that choice rather than whine about they tried and failed.
    - tchaffee 8y ago
      Being realistic about what you are up against is not defeatist. Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation? And I also mentioned where I think the promising opportunities are coming from.
      - lisper 8y ago
        Realism and defeatism are not mutually exclusive. That's the thing about self-fulfilling prophecies: if you believe in them, then they are actually true.

lisper 8y ago

> How could we make different choices? By exercising our free will. By having the courage to stand up and say, "Yeah, I get that we have a huge investment in Perl code, but Perl really sucks so how about we do this new project in Python instead? Or Scheme? Or Common Lisp?" Or, "Yeah, I get that we can get it done faster by doing it in Java, but that will incur a huge amount of technical debt, and also make it so that the really cool kids, the ones who get why Java sucks, won't want to work for us. So how about we make an investment in our future and try Clojure or Scala or Rust instead?" If enough people do that, eventually one of these overtures will get a green light. Whatever organization does that first will eventually accrue a competitive advantage, and that will in the fullness of time change the dynamic. But it won't happen if no one even tries.

tchaffee 8y ago
> By exercising our free will. By having the courage to stand up and say Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? That was well over 15 years ago. I am doing my part actually. I've had the "courage" to talk to management countless times in my career about what I think the best choices would be to improve quality. I don't even think it takes courage. It's just a conversation and attempt to sell an idea. Happens all the time in business. Do you think my description of the challenges around getting change to happen were more accurate than the parent's "the belief that this is futile is a self-fulfilling prophecy."? I hardly think my comment claims it's futile when I concluded with being hopeful that change has and is happening.
- lisper 8y ago
  > Did you miss the part of my comment where I said I gave up Java and C++ for reasons of code quality? No, but the bulk of your comment sounded pretty defeatist to me: "These choices are rarely made by developers" "No one ever got fired for using Java" "Where is the opportunity for us to make different choices?" "It does seem like my own personal choice to give up on Java has had zero effect on its popularity." It's true: a single person's decision to stand up against the system is unlikely to have an effect. But if everyone makes that choice, it will have an effect. And that is more likely to happen if more people stand up and say that you should make that choice rather than whine about they tried and failed.
  - tchaffee 8y ago
    Being realistic about what you are up against is not defeatist. Is there anything I mentioned that's not a realistic assessment? Is it me that's negative, or is it the actual situation? And I also mentioned where I think the promising opportunities are coming from.
    - lisper 8y ago
      Realism and defeatism are not mutually exclusive. That's the thing about self-fulfilling prophecies: if you believe in them, then they are actually true.