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I think the other advantage is that at most community colleges you are required to branch out from technical topics and take at least a few humanities and liber

I think the other advantage is that at most community colleges you are required to branch out from technical topics and take at least a few humanities and liberal arts courses. You end up coming out slightly more well-rounded which can be hugely beneficial both career and life wise.

jgh 8y ago
you're not required to do humanities/liberal arts at US universities?
- finaliteration 8y ago
  I was referring to the “boot camps” that have popped up and not so much universities (where you are required to do those things, yes).
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Outside the USA and its cultural appendages, Canada, South Korea and the like, it is assumed that anyone who goes to university has studied the liberal arts at secondary/high school. Given the low quality of secondary education in the US in the formative period of its third level system this could not be assumed so what would in Europe be considered (grammar school) high school classes and subjects are taught at university.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    You've somehow gotten strange ideas about the programs available at US high schools. For instance, calculus is pretty widely available even if it isn't a diploma requirement.
  - learc83 8y ago
    The big differences in Universities between the US and Europe developed over a century ago and were the result of philosophical disagreements about what qualifies as a liberal education. It had nothing to do with poor quality secondary education. Parts of the US have world class secondary education and parts don't--just like Europe. Even taken as a whole the US education system ranks higher than many countries in Europe. >South Korea The South Korean education system is nothing like the US education system. It's hard to think of a large country more different from the US in this regard.
  - srtjstjsj 8y ago
    The US doesn't have "low standards", it has broader access to liberal arts education than Europe. It ends universal secondary education at grade 12, so the grade 13 (at college) completes the "liberal arts" foundation. European countries simply do grades 12 and 13 in a separate school between secondary school and university, for students that weren't forced out after grade 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_form_college https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_form_college
- johan_larson 8y ago
  It varies, but students are typically required to do anything from half a year to one year of breadth courses outside their major, which would mean arts and humanities courses for those headed into technical disciplines. But many students take what are called AP courses in high school which count as college credits, and quite a few students are able to satisfy breadth requirements that way. And some narrow programs, such as engineering degrees, require next to no work outside the main field of study. On the other hand, at some institutions one can satisfy the major minimally without a whole lot of courses, leaving plenty of time for non-technical courses. So to summarize, there is a lot of variability. A US graduate in a technical discipline may have taken anywhere from zero to two years of arts and humanities courses.
Eridrus 8y ago
Is there actually good evidence on the value of a "well-rounded education"? But in any case, I don't think shoe-horning general education into what is basically jobs training is the right approach. We put kids through 12 years of "general education", if we haven't succeeded at that point, why would a few more college credits help?
- mattkrause 8y ago
  I’m not sure that knowing about Æthelred the Unready is particularly useful for most jobs, but if you think of these classes as (covertly) teaching critical thinking and writing skills, then perhaps they make some sense even if you don’t value knowing about the world beyond your particular specialization.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    But are they actually teaching critical thinking successfully? And why would you need to wait until college for those effects to show up? The humanities classes are taught throughout regular schooling.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Not at that level its only when you get to A level and Uni you realy get to do much critical thinking.
    - jdeisenberg 8y ago
      The community college where I teach has English 001C: Critical Thinking/Composition -- “This course presents the elements of critical reasoning and logic. Students will learn to identify the basic structures of arguments and the ways people use language to fortify or to falsify arguments. Students will analyze and demonstrate these techniques by writing and critiquing essays and using research strategies.”
      - Eridrus 8y ago
        So, does this course actually work at instilling critical thinking in students, outside the narrow classroom setting? Does this effect persist over the long term? Is it better or worse to teach this in the context of composition, or something more domain-specific, e.g. economics/government policy? I feel like people making claims that education that students don't ask for is useful have the burden of showing that it is does what they say it will, empirically, and not get to hand wave about "critical thinking" or "well-roundedness".

jgh 8y ago

you're not required to do humanities/liberal arts at US universities?

finaliteration 8y ago
I was referring to the “boot camps” that have popped up and not so much universities (where you are required to do those things, yes).
barry-cotter 8y ago
Outside the USA and its cultural appendages, Canada, South Korea and the like, it is assumed that anyone who goes to university has studied the liberal arts at secondary/high school. Given the low quality of secondary education in the US in the formative period of its third level system this could not be assumed so what would in Europe be considered (grammar school) high school classes and subjects are taught at university.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  You've somehow gotten strange ideas about the programs available at US high schools. For instance, calculus is pretty widely available even if it isn't a diploma requirement.
- learc83 8y ago
  The big differences in Universities between the US and Europe developed over a century ago and were the result of philosophical disagreements about what qualifies as a liberal education. It had nothing to do with poor quality secondary education. Parts of the US have world class secondary education and parts don't--just like Europe. Even taken as a whole the US education system ranks higher than many countries in Europe. >South Korea The South Korean education system is nothing like the US education system. It's hard to think of a large country more different from the US in this regard.
- srtjstjsj 8y ago
  The US doesn't have "low standards", it has broader access to liberal arts education than Europe. It ends universal secondary education at grade 12, so the grade 13 (at college) completes the "liberal arts" foundation. European countries simply do grades 12 and 13 in a separate school between secondary school and university, for students that weren't forced out after grade 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_form_college https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_form_college
johan_larson 8y ago
It varies, but students are typically required to do anything from half a year to one year of breadth courses outside their major, which would mean arts and humanities courses for those headed into technical disciplines. But many students take what are called AP courses in high school which count as college credits, and quite a few students are able to satisfy breadth requirements that way. And some narrow programs, such as engineering degrees, require next to no work outside the main field of study. On the other hand, at some institutions one can satisfy the major minimally without a whole lot of courses, leaving plenty of time for non-technical courses. So to summarize, there is a lot of variability. A US graduate in a technical discipline may have taken anywhere from zero to two years of arts and humanities courses.

Eridrus 8y ago

Is there actually good evidence on the value of a "well-rounded education"? But in any case, I don't think shoe-horning general education into what is basically jobs training is the right approach. We put kids through 12 years of "general education", if we haven't succeeded at that point, why would a few more college credits help?

mattkrause 8y ago
I’m not sure that knowing about Æthelred the Unready is particularly useful for most jobs, but if you think of these classes as (covertly) teaching critical thinking and writing skills, then perhaps they make some sense even if you don’t value knowing about the world beyond your particular specialization.
- Eridrus 8y ago
  But are they actually teaching critical thinking successfully? And why would you need to wait until college for those effects to show up? The humanities classes are taught throughout regular schooling.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Not at that level its only when you get to A level and Uni you realy get to do much critical thinking.
  - jdeisenberg 8y ago
    The community college where I teach has English 001C: Critical Thinking/Composition -- “This course presents the elements of critical reasoning and logic. Students will learn to identify the basic structures of arguments and the ways people use language to fortify or to falsify arguments. Students will analyze and demonstrate these techniques by writing and critiquing essays and using research strategies.”
    - Eridrus 8y ago
      So, does this course actually work at instilling critical thinking in students, outside the narrow classroom setting? Does this effect persist over the long term? Is it better or worse to teach this in the context of composition, or something more domain-specific, e.g. economics/government policy? I feel like people making claims that education that students don't ask for is useful have the burden of showing that it is does what they say it will, empirically, and not get to hand wave about "critical thinking" or "well-roundedness".