5 ms·

I'm enjoying the contrast between the title of this article and the first sentence of the article that it links to: > California lost a very small but statisti

I'm enjoying the contrast between the title of this article and the first sentence of the article that it links to: > California lost a very small but statistically significant percentage of high-income residents after voters approved Proposition 30 I wish it was possible to talk about important and interesting issues like optimal tax levels without everything being an ideological battle. I don't care if you think taxes are too high on high income earners. You might be right. But you should be curious about the possibility that you're wrong.

tuesdayrain 8y ago
Awareness of the Laffer Curve is helpful for these discussions.
- ebikelaw 8y ago
  Did you mean awareness of how it’s the most thoroughly debunked idea of the Reagan era, or something else?
- jacobmoe 8y ago
  I'm aware of the Laffer Curve. It's generally used as a argument for decreasing taxation, even after experience finds that decreasing taxation leads to lower revenue. Just because it's true that there are two levels of taxation that result in $0 revenue (0% and 100%) does not say anything about the shape of the curve connecting those points, nor to where we currently are on the curve.
kryogen1c 8y ago
> I wish it was possible to talk about important and interesting issues like optimal tax levels without everything being an ideological battle. I don't care if you think taxes are too high Irony meter off the charts. most people don't understand they are likely tax consumers, not providers. As a thought experiment, it must be true that at some income level a person uses more taxes than they provide. Quantifying the exact number is difficult and locality dependent, but it clearly exists. Who do you think the major tax revenue providers are? Corporations and rich people. I don't understand why anyone thinks they're not paying their fair share when they are almost the only ones paying. The top 10% of us wage earners account for over 70% of personal income tax revenue, while the bottom 50% (under 40k/year) contribute <3% https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxe...
- cannonedhamster 8y ago
  The reason people see it as unfair is because the wealth in the United States goes disproportionately to the top. Of course they are going to be the ones paying they are the only ones left with anything of value and any real disposable income. The money they pay mostly goes to services that benefit themselves anyways. There's a reason that wealthier areas have nicer schools, better roads, always get plowed first. I mean come on if the top 10 percent are only paying 70% then they are underpaying based on the fact that they hold 77% of American wealth. Let's not get into the world. https://billmoyers.com/story/top-10-percent-wealth/ https://billmoyers.com/story/top-10-percent-wealth/
  - tekproxy 8y ago
    Pareto distributions occur in all skill dependent distributions from musicians and academics. You say it like it's some evil conspiracy or that the rich only become rich by making others poor.
    - chrisbennet 8y ago
      When a man tells you he got rich by hard work, ask him: Whose? -Don Marquis
    - cannonedhamster 8y ago
      It's not that rich people are evil. Rich people control the systems by which money is made and logically reserve as large a portion of that pie as they can for themselves. The problem is that as a group they have made it so that there is not enough at the bottom and policy needs to be changed to reflect that. It's like saying you have a group of two people in a room with a pump that keeps giving them air, but the pump is fed by a room full of 50 people who keep having a dwindling supply of air to breathe. The only thing keeping those two rooms apart is an unlocked door. At some point either the people with all the air share it, or the people in the room without it will open the door by force. It's just a statement of human nature. Imbalanced systems have a way of achieving balance.

tuesdayrain 8y ago

Awareness of the Laffer Curve is helpful for these discussions.

ebikelaw 8y ago
Did you mean awareness of how it’s the most thoroughly debunked idea of the Reagan era, or something else?
jacobmoe 8y ago
I'm aware of the Laffer Curve. It's generally used as a argument for decreasing taxation, even after experience finds that decreasing taxation leads to lower revenue. Just because it's true that there are two levels of taxation that result in $0 revenue (0% and 100%) does not say anything about the shape of the curve connecting those points, nor to where we currently are on the curve.

kryogen1c 8y ago

> I wish it was possible to talk about important and interesting issues like optimal tax levels without everything being an ideological battle. I don't care if you think taxes are too high Irony meter off the charts. most people don't understand they are likely tax consumers, not providers. As a thought experiment, it must be true that at some income level a person uses more taxes than they provide. Quantifying the exact number is difficult and locality dependent, but it clearly exists. Who do you think the major tax revenue providers are? Corporations and rich people. I don't understand why anyone thinks they're not paying their fair share when they are almost the only ones paying. The top 10% of us wage earners account for over 70% of personal income tax revenue, while the bottom 50% (under 40k/year) contribute <3% https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxe...

cannonedhamster 8y ago
The reason people see it as unfair is because the wealth in the United States goes disproportionately to the top. Of course they are going to be the ones paying they are the only ones left with anything of value and any real disposable income. The money they pay mostly goes to services that benefit themselves anyways. There's a reason that wealthier areas have nicer schools, better roads, always get plowed first. I mean come on if the top 10 percent are only paying 70% then they are underpaying based on the fact that they hold 77% of American wealth. Let's not get into the world. https://billmoyers.com/story/top-10-percent-wealth/ https://billmoyers.com/story/top-10-percent-wealth/
- tekproxy 8y ago
  Pareto distributions occur in all skill dependent distributions from musicians and academics. You say it like it's some evil conspiracy or that the rich only become rich by making others poor.
  - chrisbennet 8y ago
    When a man tells you he got rich by hard work, ask him: Whose? -Don Marquis
  - cannonedhamster 8y ago
    It's not that rich people are evil. Rich people control the systems by which money is made and logically reserve as large a portion of that pie as they can for themselves. The problem is that as a group they have made it so that there is not enough at the bottom and policy needs to be changed to reflect that. It's like saying you have a group of two people in a room with a pump that keeps giving them air, but the pump is fed by a room full of 50 people who keep having a dwindling supply of air to breathe. The only thing keeping those two rooms apart is an unlocked door. At some point either the people with all the air share it, or the people in the room without it will open the door by force. It's just a statement of human nature. Imbalanced systems have a way of achieving balance.