8 ms·

Been Down So Long It Looks Like Debt to Me

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
newman8r 8y ago
I feel bad for the author's parents, thankfully he got his dad taken off as a cosigner. I also think the author should be willing to accept 100% blame for the debt, which it seems like they aren't.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  >What an irony that the decisions I made about college when I was seventeen have derailed such a goal. If it is indeed true that they were suckered in to this bad deal at the age of 17, the blame may belong with the group of people who profit from the exploitation of people who are by any measure, minors. You know, all of that money is going somewhere.
- another-one-off 8y ago
  > I also think the author should be willing to accept 100% blame for the debt, which it seems like they aren't. This isn't a productive way of treating bad debt - and it is particularly questionable in light of the treatment the major banks received in the 2008 crisis. The system, and it is a pretty good one, is that the lender is responsible for judging the risk of who they are lending to. If they judge correctly and the venture succeeds, the money comes back with interest. If the venture fails, then the money is lost in bankruptcy and the slate is wiped mostly clear. Debtors prisons are stupid, holding people to the past is foolish. Once someone can't pay money back, then they can't pay it back and that should be the end of the matter. This idea that student loans can't be discharged through bankruptcy is one of the grossest unfairnesses that the US foists on its young people. Pretending that a lenders hands are clean when they have given $100,000 to somebody studying an English major is crazy.
  - pasbesoin 8y ago
    One more thing, debtors' prisons take a private debt, and then compound it with public spending. Prisons aren't cheap. They get outsourced. And then private debt becomes a vehicle for private profit (at taxpayer expense). Follow the money. P.S. I didn't actually RTFA, yet. The contemporary resurgence of support for "debtors' prisons" and the like, pushes my buttons. As well, letting Wall Street and kin off the hook while foreclosing on (and, per the previous, maybe locking up) some of their suckers.
  - newman8r 8y ago
    I personally went through defaulting on student loans and being hassled by bill collectors, so I can relate to that situation - it totally sucks. I also agree that the laws pertaining to bankruptcy and student loans should be revisited. I also think predatory lending practices are a big problem. But despite all of that, I really feel like the author should own responsibility. It can simultaneously be a bad system and still be his fault.
    - foobiekr 8y ago
      The quote, "My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design" really kind of made it hard to be empathetic for the rest of the article. In equal major, someone decided to go deep into debt obtaining not one but two degrees in English literature in the late 2000s when this was already well known to be a terrible idea. I think student debt should be reformed and it should be possible to discharge student debt through bankruptcy (with modifications to the previous status quo, I think), but this is just kind of grating.
  - eftychis 8y ago
    I agree. That is why you pay them interest and the interest is also directly related to how risky the loan is considered. If you put a 10x asset on the line and have a history of paying your debts you pay much less interest on an x value loan, than if you are starting out. The whole framework of student loans is simply crazy and is a factor of inflation of tuition. (Greater supply of capital available to universities.) I am sorry, but politicians' here played the Pontius Pilate card on U.S. citizens and claimed they provide you with the option of education any wealthy democratic country needs. Alas if you are poor and head into this path, you have to consider that you have to make an unattainable monthly payment 6 months after graduating. (The payments I see assume you enter a really good market and attain a good salary with your entry Bachelor's degree. Alas the market is tough.) If you are in debtor's market (high inflation) good for you. Otherwise you are doomed, as the author points out. It is not the legal fault of the bank. (Morality aside.) The bank is going to earn as much of its assets (you that is) as the law allows. And the lawmakers gave the bank the high ground and killed the sentinel. You should NOT get a loan, if you can not invoke bankruptcy or do not have the renegotiate your debt. The bank provides you with a service. You are paying the bank the capital, the opportunity cost (expected gains from investment (comprises inflation)), and a risk buffer. In the case of student debts the bank is allowed to impose you with a risk buffer but practically has little to no risk. If the borrower and the lender are not in an equal footing prepare for disaster. I find the author has slipped into a mental trap due to their predicament. Education is priceless for the democratic society, not always for the individual. (I am not going into authoritarian regimes and why they keep people uneducated here -- read any serious political science intro text). Democracy requires educated involved individuals exercising their power responsibly. As an individual you are better off with the best education you can get that does not kill you (financially). In a lot of countries, this is determined by your abilities as a student and you don't have to worry that much about dying financially. Not so here in the U.S. You can spend 200k to get educated, but you are putting a bullet through your head practically, because you have no way to default to the unsustainable payment options. It is the same as the gambler's fallacy. Say you have a probability of winning 90%. One could say you are going to win, go all in. With 10% you have gone bust and have nothing. Student loans are the same. If 60% [1] of people have to take loans to study, I claim the system is broken and shall call you out as a hypocrite if you say people have equivalent opportunities to start their lives depending on their abilities and work. I say the canary in the coalmine is dead if people question if their kids should go to the university. That is not normal or a positive market indicator. I hope this question remains intrinsically foreign for me and people outside the U.S. How do you expect to compete and act as an individual, if you do/can not invest in yourself? Are you going to compete in unskilled manual labor with automation or "third world" countries (or slave countries like North Korea)? [1]https://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/rising-tuition-costs-and-the-history-of-student-loans/ https://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/rising-tuition-costs-a...
kough 8y ago
Sick submarine bro
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't do this here.
charmides 8y ago
I feel really sorry for the author and the author's parents. I know so many people who spent so much time and money on degrees like English literature, history, arts, sociology, etc. Today, most of them cannot find a job in any related field. In fact, I only know a single person who managed to make a good career out of studying a subject like that. As a teenager, I was close to choosing this type of major myself. Almost nobody tried to talk me out of it. Instead, there were many people around me who encouraged me to choose something I found interesting and let the rest take care of itself. Reading articles like this, it reinforces my belief that this is almost always terrible advice and those who say things like that to young people should feel ashamed.
- brm 8y ago
  There’s more to learning and the life of the mind than how much money it can make you. College shouldn’t entirely be a STEM trade school. Creativity and innovation require cross pollination and I bet if you look harder you find plenty of studio art majors and linguists and English majors doing just fine in the modern world. We can’t all be engineers but we can all learn to apply ourselves across disciplines and that works both ways. The problem seems to be that people believe that college is the only ticket they need and that they don’t need to apply themselves further or continue learning and adapting.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    It would be sensible to google one's career prospects before taking on major debt.
  - black6 8y ago
    You are absolutely right (I lament the passing of the classic, well-rounded liberal arts education) but you don't have to be an accounting major to realize racking up $100k in debt for an English lit degree just isn't wise.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
dokein 8y ago
But... I thought taking English classes and reading literature was supposed to provide one with critical thinking skills? How many years of "critical thinking" does one need to take before realizing that $200K on 6% variable interest is a whole lot of loans to take for no job prospects? How poignant and vivid should one's description of poverty be (parents crying over a yearbook purchase) before actually thinking about their own responsibilities?
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  I'm surprised at the number of computer savvy young people who never google "starting salary by major" or such before college or while in college. When I went to college (before the internet) the starting salaries and job markets for the various majors were well known and talked about by the students.
  - dokein 8y ago
    When my parents couldn't spare $40, I took a job at a local motel. The author, in contrast, asked them to cosign for $200,040.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Seems what was missing was a sensible discussion along the lines of "why not go to State U which would cost about half that. Or maybe community college which is much less than even that."
      - cannonedhamster 8y ago
        This assumes that they even knew this existed. I can tell you that my parents, nor I knew at the time, however the internet was a bit farther along by the time he went to school.
        skookumchuck 8y ago
        $50K/year is an elite university. The bulk of your high school peers would be going to State U and would be talking about it. It'd be like buying a Mercedes because you don't know about Fords. I find this hard to believe.
bcatanzaro 8y ago
I think this system would be greatly improved if the universities sponsoring this debt (and profiting from it) had some skin in the game. If the universities suffered financially when their former students did, they would get much wiser about how they encourage students to take on debt, and they would stop inflating their costs to match all the subsidies we provide. I think the modern university business model is predatory and needs to be regulated.
- mhluongo 8y ago
  Government intervention, in the form of easily accessible student loans, is a huge part of what brought us here.
  - oculusthrift 8y ago
    why is everyone blaming the government and universities? in what sane universe do people see the student loan crisis we have, and google starting incomes for their degrees and still decide to get massive loans for majors which don’t pay much? do people themselves deserve no blame or is it all someone else’s fault?
    - charmides 8y ago
      It's not all someone else's fault, but the people who are making those decisions are very young and easy to exploit.
      - oculusthrift 8y ago
        they are young but: 1. They have parents which should know better. (especially when cosigning loans). 2. They dont have to go to the most expensive school. I could have gone to a much more expensive school like NYU or USC but chose to go to a UC because thats what my family could afford and I didn't want 100k in loans.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      The universities keep increasing cost of tuition way above the inflation rate in order to pay for increasing numbers of non-teaching administrators and fringe services like activities for students and sports facilities. The universities are the ones who are increasing tuition rates to better market themselves to future students. The government, by way of elected leaders, promise increasing amounts of loans to college students under the guise of helping these students access increasingly costly schools of higher education, yet they are really just buying future votes (see, I made it easy for you to get someone else to give you a gigantic loan for a 4-year vacation! Now, vote for me again so I can try to forgive your debts, a la Bernie Sanders).
Johnny555 8y ago
What is the expected career path for an English Lit major? I know there are lots of fields related to writing like copywriting, editing, news reporting, etc but is there a job that's a more direct application of the degree (besides English Lit professor)?
fred_is_fred 8y ago
You spent over $100k on an MA in English from a private school in the most expensive city in the United States to live. Sorry, but that's on you. There's no math in the world to make that a good decision.
- candiodari 8y ago
  Humans reason based on personal status, and the whole article is full of personal status decisions ignoring economic reality time after time after time. Then, of course, society is blamed for providing loans, and for (I think) allowing personal status to exist at all ... And the article is -unintentionally- terminated with a statement confirming that despite all these events, the author has not changed strategy since before he left high school: "M.H. Miller is the arts editor for The New York Times Style Magazine.". Anybody who thinks this person can be helped is kidding themselves. This person can't be helped. Not with law changes, not with refinancing, not with financial education, not even with money.
  - pseudalopex 8y ago
    According to sites like Glassdoor, the average salary for a New York Times editor is in the low six figures. The author made some bad decisions, but do you think switching careers now would be a good one?
oculusthrift 8y ago
This person really tries to absolve him and his family for anything. For one, don’t get how it’s valid to complain that banks were willing to give him loans. It’s his choice whether take them. In addition, this is exactly what people in the past campaigned for: loans for low income people to go to college. Second he blames society for selling dream that any education was an uncontested pathway to success. Which, once again, is up to him and his parents whether or not they buy that lie
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  You don't think the people who lied to him have some culpability?
cannonedhamster 8y ago
The fact that you cannot discharge student loan debt is what encourages risky loan behavior. I can say that I got myself into a terrible loan because I was told that the prospects of a career were far better than they were,unfortunately this information was significantly harder to find back in that time. I didn't even know community colleges existed and thought I'd have it paid off in no time. As it is, I don't know how long it will take me to pay off, but it's going to be years.
rabboRubble 8y ago
I find it deeply ironic that our legislators find that 17 and 18 year olds are too young and irresponsible to drink alcohol. That experience is reserved for the 21 and older crowd. Signing up for 4 year plan at 17 and 18 years old that gives the young person $100,000 dollars inexpugnable debt by the time the young person turns 21, no problems with this at all. This whole system is headed for a major reckoning.
- liqu0rice 8y ago
  You're old enough to kill but not for votin' (1964) [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_of_Destruction_(song) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_of_Destruction_(song)
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  17 and 18 year olds have no assets and no credit history, so there's no recourse for the lender. The reason for the inexpungable debt is so lenders will be willing to lend to them. Otherwise, you'll have people graduating, declaring bankruptcy, and getting a free ride through college sticking lenders with the bill.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    So what you're saying is people would be robbing the banks, rather than the other way around ! That would be SO unfair ! Say, what happened in 2008, when lenders couldn't pay their bills ? These arguments would make sense if they were applied consistently. But in practice, socialism for the rich, debtor prisons for the poor.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      I didn't agree with the bailout.
    - eftychis 8y ago
      The bailout should not have happened perhaps. Banks have trapped us into the too big to fail, we are above the law. Think it like this: You have a sibling that is a bad gambler. They play roulette and lose big as expected and drive the whole families finances to the bottom. They then go to your parents complain that roulette is bad and ask your parents to bail them out. Your parents instead of punishing your sibling and make them repay the debt, say that it is fine please don't do it again and we don't want you to declare bankruptcy, but we will have your brother/sister (that is you) pay the bills.
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
At least he helped finance a comfortable lifestyle for the NYU admin staff.
5555624 8y ago
>My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design. Bad luck and the "system"? No. The author and his parents are also responsible. They should have sat down and discussed majors, schools, and how to pay for them. NYU is not the only school with English Literature programs; so, he could have chosen a cheaper school. They could have discussed what sort of job he wanted. If he wanted to study English Literature because he liked it, make it a minor and/or study it throughout your life. You can blame luck and the system all you want; but, you bear some of the responsibility yourself.
- tspike 8y ago
  > Or was it my fault for not having the foresight to realize it was a mistake to spend roughly $200,000 on a school where, in order to get my degree, I kept a journal about reading Virginia Woolf?
  - candiodari 8y ago
    If you read the article, she mentions a sentence like this twice, then immediately drops it. By contrast, the responsibility of "society", "government" is given pages of text. Clearly it's not the author's intent to accept responsibility. At the end of the article it is pointed out how the reasoning in the group works: "After the food was served, a waiter came by with a stack of to-go boxes, which sat on the edge of the table untouched for a while as everyone cautiously eyed them. The group was reluctant at first, but then Ian said, “The chicken was actually pretty good,” as he scooped it into one of the boxes. Mira shrugged, took a fork, and added, “This is a little tacky, but I’d hate to waste free food,” and the rest of the table followed her lead. Maybe the next generation would do better, but I felt like we were broke and broken. No number of degrees or professional successes would put us back together again. For now, though, we knew where our next meal was coming from." Knowing that making decisions based upon personal status rather than financial sense is what got this group into trouble this sentence is more than a little disheartening.
Simulacra 8y ago
These articles pop up every now and then and I'm struck by how many include a similar line to "a B.A. and an M.A. in English literature, with more than $100,000 of debt..." If your goal is an MA in English, to be a writer, why would you go anywhere even approaching $10k a year? This notion that you must attend an expensive school is a huge fallacy that people need to understand.
RickJWagner 8y ago
"My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design." No. The author chose to go to school out of state and also decided to pursue a master's degree with added debt. College is not free. Debt compounds. Unwise decisions have consequences. We need to start basic financial education, fast.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

I feel bad for the author's parents, thankfully he got his dad taken off as a cosigner. I also think the author should be willing to accept 100% blame for the debt, which it seems like they aren't.

whatshisface 8y ago
>What an irony that the decisions I made about college when I was seventeen have derailed such a goal. If it is indeed true that they were suckered in to this bad deal at the age of 17, the blame may belong with the group of people who profit from the exploitation of people who are by any measure, minors. You know, all of that money is going somewhere.
another-one-off 8y ago
> I also think the author should be willing to accept 100% blame for the debt, which it seems like they aren't. This isn't a productive way of treating bad debt - and it is particularly questionable in light of the treatment the major banks received in the 2008 crisis. The system, and it is a pretty good one, is that the lender is responsible for judging the risk of who they are lending to. If they judge correctly and the venture succeeds, the money comes back with interest. If the venture fails, then the money is lost in bankruptcy and the slate is wiped mostly clear. Debtors prisons are stupid, holding people to the past is foolish. Once someone can't pay money back, then they can't pay it back and that should be the end of the matter. This idea that student loans can't be discharged through bankruptcy is one of the grossest unfairnesses that the US foists on its young people. Pretending that a lenders hands are clean when they have given $100,000 to somebody studying an English major is crazy.
- pasbesoin 8y ago
  One more thing, debtors' prisons take a private debt, and then compound it with public spending. Prisons aren't cheap. They get outsourced. And then private debt becomes a vehicle for private profit (at taxpayer expense). Follow the money. P.S. I didn't actually RTFA, yet. The contemporary resurgence of support for "debtors' prisons" and the like, pushes my buttons. As well, letting Wall Street and kin off the hook while foreclosing on (and, per the previous, maybe locking up) some of their suckers.
- newman8r 8y ago
  I personally went through defaulting on student loans and being hassled by bill collectors, so I can relate to that situation - it totally sucks. I also agree that the laws pertaining to bankruptcy and student loans should be revisited. I also think predatory lending practices are a big problem. But despite all of that, I really feel like the author should own responsibility. It can simultaneously be a bad system and still be his fault.
  - foobiekr 8y ago
    The quote, "My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design" really kind of made it hard to be empathetic for the rest of the article. In equal major, someone decided to go deep into debt obtaining not one but two degrees in English literature in the late 2000s when this was already well known to be a terrible idea. I think student debt should be reformed and it should be possible to discharge student debt through bankruptcy (with modifications to the previous status quo, I think), but this is just kind of grating.
- eftychis 8y ago
  I agree. That is why you pay them interest and the interest is also directly related to how risky the loan is considered. If you put a 10x asset on the line and have a history of paying your debts you pay much less interest on an x value loan, than if you are starting out. The whole framework of student loans is simply crazy and is a factor of inflation of tuition. (Greater supply of capital available to universities.) I am sorry, but politicians' here played the Pontius Pilate card on U.S. citizens and claimed they provide you with the option of education any wealthy democratic country needs. Alas if you are poor and head into this path, you have to consider that you have to make an unattainable monthly payment 6 months after graduating. (The payments I see assume you enter a really good market and attain a good salary with your entry Bachelor's degree. Alas the market is tough.) If you are in debtor's market (high inflation) good for you. Otherwise you are doomed, as the author points out. It is not the legal fault of the bank. (Morality aside.) The bank is going to earn as much of its assets (you that is) as the law allows. And the lawmakers gave the bank the high ground and killed the sentinel. You should NOT get a loan, if you can not invoke bankruptcy or do not have the renegotiate your debt. The bank provides you with a service. You are paying the bank the capital, the opportunity cost (expected gains from investment (comprises inflation)), and a risk buffer. In the case of student debts the bank is allowed to impose you with a risk buffer but practically has little to no risk. If the borrower and the lender are not in an equal footing prepare for disaster. I find the author has slipped into a mental trap due to their predicament. Education is priceless for the democratic society, not always for the individual. (I am not going into authoritarian regimes and why they keep people uneducated here -- read any serious political science intro text). Democracy requires educated involved individuals exercising their power responsibly. As an individual you are better off with the best education you can get that does not kill you (financially). In a lot of countries, this is determined by your abilities as a student and you don't have to worry that much about dying financially. Not so here in the U.S. You can spend 200k to get educated, but you are putting a bullet through your head practically, because you have no way to default to the unsustainable payment options. It is the same as the gambler's fallacy. Say you have a probability of winning 90%. One could say you are going to win, go all in. With 10% you have gone bust and have nothing. Student loans are the same. If 60% [1] of people have to take loans to study, I claim the system is broken and shall call you out as a hypocrite if you say people have equivalent opportunities to start their lives depending on their abilities and work. I say the canary in the coalmine is dead if people question if their kids should go to the university. That is not normal or a positive market indicator. I hope this question remains intrinsically foreign for me and people outside the U.S. How do you expect to compete and act as an individual, if you do/can not invest in yourself? Are you going to compete in unskilled manual labor with automation or "third world" countries (or slave countries like North Korea)? [1]https://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/rising-tuition-costs-and-the-history-of-student-loans/ https://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/rising-tuition-costs-a...

kough 8y ago

Sick submarine bro

dang 8y ago
Please don't do this here.

charmides 8y ago

I feel really sorry for the author and the author's parents. I know so many people who spent so much time and money on degrees like English literature, history, arts, sociology, etc. Today, most of them cannot find a job in any related field. In fact, I only know a single person who managed to make a good career out of studying a subject like that. As a teenager, I was close to choosing this type of major myself. Almost nobody tried to talk me out of it. Instead, there were many people around me who encouraged me to choose something I found interesting and let the rest take care of itself. Reading articles like this, it reinforces my belief that this is almost always terrible advice and those who say things like that to young people should feel ashamed.

brm 8y ago
There’s more to learning and the life of the mind than how much money it can make you. College shouldn’t entirely be a STEM trade school. Creativity and innovation require cross pollination and I bet if you look harder you find plenty of studio art majors and linguists and English majors doing just fine in the modern world. We can’t all be engineers but we can all learn to apply ourselves across disciplines and that works both ways. The problem seems to be that people believe that college is the only ticket they need and that they don’t need to apply themselves further or continue learning and adapting.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  It would be sensible to google one's career prospects before taking on major debt.
- black6 8y ago
  You are absolutely right (I lament the passing of the classic, well-rounded liberal arts education) but you don't have to be an accounting major to realize racking up $100k in debt for an English lit degree just isn't wise.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

dokein 8y ago

But... I thought taking English classes and reading literature was supposed to provide one with critical thinking skills? How many years of "critical thinking" does one need to take before realizing that $200K on 6% variable interest is a whole lot of loans to take for no job prospects? How poignant and vivid should one's description of poverty be (parents crying over a yearbook purchase) before actually thinking about their own responsibilities?

skookumchuck 8y ago
I'm surprised at the number of computer savvy young people who never google "starting salary by major" or such before college or while in college. When I went to college (before the internet) the starting salaries and job markets for the various majors were well known and talked about by the students.
- dokein 8y ago
  When my parents couldn't spare $40, I took a job at a local motel. The author, in contrast, asked them to cosign for $200,040.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Seems what was missing was a sensible discussion along the lines of "why not go to State U which would cost about half that. Or maybe community college which is much less than even that."
    - cannonedhamster 8y ago
      This assumes that they even knew this existed. I can tell you that my parents, nor I knew at the time, however the internet was a bit farther along by the time he went to school.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        $50K/year is an elite university. The bulk of your high school peers would be going to State U and would be talking about it. It'd be like buying a Mercedes because you don't know about Fords. I find this hard to believe.

bcatanzaro 8y ago

I think this system would be greatly improved if the universities sponsoring this debt (and profiting from it) had some skin in the game. If the universities suffered financially when their former students did, they would get much wiser about how they encourage students to take on debt, and they would stop inflating their costs to match all the subsidies we provide. I think the modern university business model is predatory and needs to be regulated.

mhluongo 8y ago
Government intervention, in the form of easily accessible student loans, is a huge part of what brought us here.
- oculusthrift 8y ago
  why is everyone blaming the government and universities? in what sane universe do people see the student loan crisis we have, and google starting incomes for their degrees and still decide to get massive loans for majors which don’t pay much? do people themselves deserve no blame or is it all someone else’s fault?
  - charmides 8y ago
    It's not all someone else's fault, but the people who are making those decisions are very young and easy to exploit.
    - oculusthrift 8y ago
      they are young but: 1. They have parents which should know better. (especially when cosigning loans). 2. They dont have to go to the most expensive school. I could have gone to a much more expensive school like NYU or USC but chose to go to a UC because thats what my family could afford and I didn't want 100k in loans.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    The universities keep increasing cost of tuition way above the inflation rate in order to pay for increasing numbers of non-teaching administrators and fringe services like activities for students and sports facilities. The universities are the ones who are increasing tuition rates to better market themselves to future students. The government, by way of elected leaders, promise increasing amounts of loans to college students under the guise of helping these students access increasingly costly schools of higher education, yet they are really just buying future votes (see, I made it easy for you to get someone else to give you a gigantic loan for a 4-year vacation! Now, vote for me again so I can try to forgive your debts, a la Bernie Sanders).

Johnny555 8y ago

What is the expected career path for an English Lit major? I know there are lots of fields related to writing like copywriting, editing, news reporting, etc but is there a job that's a more direct application of the degree (besides English Lit professor)?

fred_is_fred 8y ago

You spent over $100k on an MA in English from a private school in the most expensive city in the United States to live. Sorry, but that's on you. There's no math in the world to make that a good decision.

candiodari 8y ago
Humans reason based on personal status, and the whole article is full of personal status decisions ignoring economic reality time after time after time. Then, of course, society is blamed for providing loans, and for (I think) allowing personal status to exist at all ... And the article is -unintentionally- terminated with a statement confirming that despite all these events, the author has not changed strategy since before he left high school: "M.H. Miller is the arts editor for The New York Times Style Magazine.". Anybody who thinks this person can be helped is kidding themselves. This person can't be helped. Not with law changes, not with refinancing, not with financial education, not even with money.
- pseudalopex 8y ago
  According to sites like Glassdoor, the average salary for a New York Times editor is in the low six figures. The author made some bad decisions, but do you think switching careers now would be a good one?

oculusthrift 8y ago

This person really tries to absolve him and his family for anything. For one, don’t get how it’s valid to complain that banks were willing to give him loans. It’s his choice whether take them. In addition, this is exactly what people in the past campaigned for: loans for low income people to go to college. Second he blames society for selling dream that any education was an uncontested pathway to success. Which, once again, is up to him and his parents whether or not they buy that lie

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
You don't think the people who lied to him have some culpability?

cannonedhamster 8y ago

The fact that you cannot discharge student loan debt is what encourages risky loan behavior. I can say that I got myself into a terrible loan because I was told that the prospects of a career were far better than they were,unfortunately this information was significantly harder to find back in that time. I didn't even know community colleges existed and thought I'd have it paid off in no time. As it is, I don't know how long it will take me to pay off, but it's going to be years.

rabboRubble 8y ago

I find it deeply ironic that our legislators find that 17 and 18 year olds are too young and irresponsible to drink alcohol. That experience is reserved for the 21 and older crowd. Signing up for 4 year plan at 17 and 18 years old that gives the young person $100,000 dollars inexpugnable debt by the time the young person turns 21, no problems with this at all. This whole system is headed for a major reckoning.

liqu0rice 8y ago
You're old enough to kill but not for votin' (1964) [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_of_Destruction_(song) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_of_Destruction_(song)
skookumchuck 8y ago
17 and 18 year olds have no assets and no credit history, so there's no recourse for the lender. The reason for the inexpungable debt is so lenders will be willing to lend to them. Otherwise, you'll have people graduating, declaring bankruptcy, and getting a free ride through college sticking lenders with the bill.
- candiodari 8y ago
  So what you're saying is people would be robbing the banks, rather than the other way around ! That would be SO unfair ! Say, what happened in 2008, when lenders couldn't pay their bills ? These arguments would make sense if they were applied consistently. But in practice, socialism for the rich, debtor prisons for the poor.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    I didn't agree with the bailout.
  - eftychis 8y ago
    The bailout should not have happened perhaps. Banks have trapped us into the too big to fail, we are above the law. Think it like this: You have a sibling that is a bad gambler. They play roulette and lose big as expected and drive the whole families finances to the bottom. They then go to your parents complain that roulette is bad and ask your parents to bail them out. Your parents instead of punishing your sibling and make them repay the debt, say that it is fine please don't do it again and we don't want you to declare bankruptcy, but we will have your brother/sister (that is you) pay the bills.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago

At least he helped finance a comfortable lifestyle for the NYU admin staff.

5555624 8y ago

>My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design. Bad luck and the "system"? No. The author and his parents are also responsible. They should have sat down and discussed majors, schools, and how to pay for them. NYU is not the only school with English Literature programs; so, he could have chosen a cheaper school. They could have discussed what sort of job he wanted. If he wanted to study English Literature because he liked it, make it a minor and/or study it throughout your life. You can blame luck and the system all you want; but, you bear some of the responsibility yourself.

tspike 8y ago
> Or was it my fault for not having the foresight to realize it was a mistake to spend roughly $200,000 on a school where, in order to get my degree, I kept a journal about reading Virginia Woolf?
- candiodari 8y ago
  If you read the article, she mentions a sentence like this twice, then immediately drops it. By contrast, the responsibility of "society", "government" is given pages of text. Clearly it's not the author's intent to accept responsibility. At the end of the article it is pointed out how the reasoning in the group works: "After the food was served, a waiter came by with a stack of to-go boxes, which sat on the edge of the table untouched for a while as everyone cautiously eyed them. The group was reluctant at first, but then Ian said, “The chicken was actually pretty good,” as he scooped it into one of the boxes. Mira shrugged, took a fork, and added, “This is a little tacky, but I’d hate to waste free food,” and the rest of the table followed her lead. Maybe the next generation would do better, but I felt like we were broke and broken. No number of degrees or professional successes would put us back together again. For now, though, we knew where our next meal was coming from." Knowing that making decisions based upon personal status rather than financial sense is what got this group into trouble this sentence is more than a little disheartening.

Simulacra 8y ago

These articles pop up every now and then and I'm struck by how many include a similar line to "a B.A. and an M.A. in English literature, with more than $100,000 of debt..." If your goal is an MA in English, to be a writer, why would you go anywhere even approaching $10k a year? This notion that you must attend an expensive school is a huge fallacy that people need to understand.

RickJWagner 8y ago

"My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design." No. The author chose to go to school out of state and also decided to pursue a master's degree with added debt. College is not free. Debt compounds. Unwise decisions have consequences. We need to start basic financial education, fast.