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And yet, without enough legitimate work opportunities, those with criminal records are strongly incentivized to resort to grey and black markets (or theft) to m

And yet, without enough legitimate work opportunities, those with criminal records are strongly incentivized to resort to grey and black markets (or theft) to make a living. A vicious cycle. We've got to get rid of the mindset that we need to "protect ourselves", both corporately and individually, from "dangerous people" (i.e. former criminals) by excluding them from our lives and our companies. "Love your neighbor as yourself" applies to them also. Love always involves risk. A noble society values redemption more than safety. Work itself is ennobling, especially when trust and responsibility can be earned. That's not to say we should ignore background check results. But a crime (or crimes) in the past shouldn't mean they're automatically excluded.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
Arguably a low enough unemployment rate can combat this: People may not be automatically excluded for a criminal record, but a company may have "better" candidates without a record. But when unemployment is low and they're desperate for employees, they can't necessarily afford to exclude those on the reform path.
RIMR 8y ago
To be fair, "You got caught smoking pot a decade ago, and therefore we cannot trust you to write Python code" isn't the kind of judgment a successful company would pass. That's the kind of thing a doomed company would do. However, if you got caught stealing a bunch of electronics from a past employer, you'll have a seriously hard time find a job anywhere where they have to trust you with money or property. Honestly, people who commit crimes against their employers do this to themselves. How could you ever be trusted again when your strategy at the beginning was to shit where you sleep?
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "To be fair, "You got caught smoking pot a decade ago, and therefore we cannot trust you to write Python code" isn't the kind of judgment a successful company would pass. That's the kind of thing a doomed company would do." I don't feel that's really relevant, and the person who is trying to get back on their feet likely doesn't care. They just want a damn job. "Honestly, people who commit crimes against their employers do this to themselves" Not many do. In fact, I'd say far more employers commit crimes against their employees than the other way around. And yet, they don't have to worry.
otakucode 8y ago
This problem goes pretty deep. Like, down to basic brain function and peoples epistemology. It is far easier for the brain to hang on to binary distinctions, to split things into good and bad. Even if a person looks at a list of 'pros' and 'cons' for making a decision, and decides a certain way is the best solution, they will adamantly refuse to admit or accept the notion that they agreed to bear those 'cons'. They will only admit (even internally to themselves) that they chose to pursue the 'pros'. If most people were to look at safety only a bit differently, their world outlook would change substantially. If they realized that it is stupendously easy and simple for any of the multitudes of people they come into contact with on a daily basis to kill them, and that no police force in the world could possibly stop such a thing from happening if the person were to decide to do it with no warning, the initial response would probably be fear. But, upon further reflection, they might realize that despite the tremendous ease, despite what others might have gained at any point, it simply has never happened to them. What could possibly explain that? There are ex-convicts, unpleasant people, people with disturbed worldviews, psychopaths, and other 'bad people' everywhere and you've certainly been in contact with them quite regularly. And... you've been, and continue to be, safe. While it is challenging to keep a human being alive, what with them having all sorts of needs, it is very easy to kill one. Someone walks up to you and pulls out a knife with a 2 inch tiny blade and simply presses it into your jugular and you will most likely die in a minute. Or you could get hit with a car, or something could be put into your food, or your house could be set on fire with you in it, there are innumerable methods that are all easy and entirely within the capability of any normal person. But, killing a human requires something else. It requires the willingness to kill. Almost no one has that. Military training is arduous and difficult because even giving this willingness to the average person is insanely hard to do (and they settle for simply ingraining killing as a reflex response since they have never actually accomplished manufacturing the actual will, so soldiers typically kill before their conscious mind can decide what to do, taking their will out of the equation, resulting in neurological damage that manifests as PTSD but that's another topic). To presume that even a "bad person" runs around with this willingness constantly within them is quite ludicrous once you've faced the reality of how rare it is for such violence to occur. And then when you look at the violence which does occur, and try to understand it, what makes those situations so different, you quickly notice that essentially all occur in situations of desperation. You might be led to suspect that perhaps the desperation is more the problem rather than the persons involved. Perhaps the 'bad people' who didn't kill anybody the day before or the day after aren't simply murder machines who will always be a threat. This all, however, requires a great deal of thinking. And thinking about emotionally arousing topics at that. Life, death, the uncertainty of strangers, the fragility of ones own situation, etc. Before you can begin down the road of thinking about these things, you have to know how to think. And you have to be willing to think. Both of those factors are in substantially short supply in modern society. The knowing how to think because we don't teach it in schools (the Republican Party in Texas actually had opposition to the teaching of critical thinking skills as a primary plank in their official party platform not long ago) save in college philosophy courses. The willingness due to a total reliance upon intuition as a guide to truth. Intuition can not deal with these topics at all. It arises from the 'default behavior' of our brains which arises from their structure that evolved to keep us alive (just) in small tribes on the African savannah. It is prone to obsession with fear, and fearing the unknown, and fleeing from threats rather than facing or dealing with them. Until a person can turn their back on intuition and use reason instead, the monstrous 'bad people' will be a constant bugaboo.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

Arguably a low enough unemployment rate can combat this: People may not be automatically excluded for a criminal record, but a company may have "better" candidates without a record. But when unemployment is low and they're desperate for employees, they can't necessarily afford to exclude those on the reform path.

RIMR 8y ago

To be fair, "You got caught smoking pot a decade ago, and therefore we cannot trust you to write Python code" isn't the kind of judgment a successful company would pass. That's the kind of thing a doomed company would do. However, if you got caught stealing a bunch of electronics from a past employer, you'll have a seriously hard time find a job anywhere where they have to trust you with money or property. Honestly, people who commit crimes against their employers do this to themselves. How could you ever be trusted again when your strategy at the beginning was to shit where you sleep?

s73v3r_ 8y ago
"To be fair, "You got caught smoking pot a decade ago, and therefore we cannot trust you to write Python code" isn't the kind of judgment a successful company would pass. That's the kind of thing a doomed company would do." I don't feel that's really relevant, and the person who is trying to get back on their feet likely doesn't care. They just want a damn job. "Honestly, people who commit crimes against their employers do this to themselves" Not many do. In fact, I'd say far more employers commit crimes against their employees than the other way around. And yet, they don't have to worry.

otakucode 8y ago

This problem goes pretty deep. Like, down to basic brain function and peoples epistemology. It is far easier for the brain to hang on to binary distinctions, to split things into good and bad. Even if a person looks at a list of 'pros' and 'cons' for making a decision, and decides a certain way is the best solution, they will adamantly refuse to admit or accept the notion that they agreed to bear those 'cons'. They will only admit (even internally to themselves) that they chose to pursue the 'pros'. If most people were to look at safety only a bit differently, their world outlook would change substantially. If they realized that it is stupendously easy and simple for any of the multitudes of people they come into contact with on a daily basis to kill them, and that no police force in the world could possibly stop such a thing from happening if the person were to decide to do it with no warning, the initial response would probably be fear. But, upon further reflection, they might realize that despite the tremendous ease, despite what others might have gained at any point, it simply has never happened to them. What could possibly explain that? There are ex-convicts, unpleasant people, people with disturbed worldviews, psychopaths, and other 'bad people' everywhere and you've certainly been in contact with them quite regularly. And... you've been, and continue to be, safe. While it is challenging to keep a human being alive, what with them having all sorts of needs, it is very easy to kill one. Someone walks up to you and pulls out a knife with a 2 inch tiny blade and simply presses it into your jugular and you will most likely die in a minute. Or you could get hit with a car, or something could be put into your food, or your house could be set on fire with you in it, there are innumerable methods that are all easy and entirely within the capability of any normal person. But, killing a human requires something else. It requires the willingness to kill. Almost no one has that. Military training is arduous and difficult because even giving this willingness to the average person is insanely hard to do (and they settle for simply ingraining killing as a reflex response since they have never actually accomplished manufacturing the actual will, so soldiers typically kill before their conscious mind can decide what to do, taking their will out of the equation, resulting in neurological damage that manifests as PTSD but that's another topic). To presume that even a "bad person" runs around with this willingness constantly within them is quite ludicrous once you've faced the reality of how rare it is for such violence to occur. And then when you look at the violence which does occur, and try to understand it, what makes those situations so different, you quickly notice that essentially all occur in situations of desperation. You might be led to suspect that perhaps the desperation is more the problem rather than the persons involved. Perhaps the 'bad people' who didn't kill anybody the day before or the day after aren't simply murder machines who will always be a threat. This all, however, requires a great deal of thinking. And thinking about emotionally arousing topics at that. Life, death, the uncertainty of strangers, the fragility of ones own situation, etc. Before you can begin down the road of thinking about these things, you have to know how to think. And you have to be willing to think. Both of those factors are in substantially short supply in modern society. The knowing how to think because we don't teach it in schools (the Republican Party in Texas actually had opposition to the teaching of critical thinking skills as a primary plank in their official party platform not long ago) save in college philosophy courses. The willingness due to a total reliance upon intuition as a guide to truth. Intuition can not deal with these topics at all. It arises from the 'default behavior' of our brains which arises from their structure that evolved to keep us alive (just) in small tribes on the African savannah. It is prone to obsession with fear, and fearing the unknown, and fleeing from threats rather than facing or dealing with them. Until a person can turn their back on intuition and use reason instead, the monstrous 'bad people' will be a constant bugaboo.