8 ms·

That's... basically the opposite of true.

by avarun 8y ago

scarface74 8y ago
Outside of Silicon Valley in the rest of the country -- look at the job reqs.
- shados 8y ago
  Job reqs are a lie, and a lot of jobs (I almost want to say most, but I don't have data to back it up) never even make it as far as the job boards. The ones that do are often not even drafted by the hiring manager, and just written by someone who asked "So, what kind of skills would be nice?". Most companies will absolutely hire outside of what's written. They don't have much choice unless they're looking for entry level folks. Competent senior folks get snatched up very, very quickly, so if you're looking for something too specific, the req will stay open forever. At least, that's been my experience working in both Canada and in the US, and I've never been close to Silicon Valley (or the west coast for that matter, so if its true there, I stand corrected).
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I don’t do job boards either - I always go through recruiters. But if you are a “senior Dev” that knows Java and they are looking for a Node Developer, you aren’t going to be anywhere on thier list to hire.
    - shados 8y ago
      to me, recruiters === job boards. The interesting openings are through direct connections and referrals.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Recruiters are not the same as job boards. I have recruiters that I’ve worked with for years as both a job seeker and hiring employees, I have met them for lunch. I can sit back, tell recruiters I’m looking for a salary that pays no less than $X and sit back. It’s never taken me more than a month from the time I’ve started looking to having another job.
      - lovich 8y ago
        It's always going to be better for you if you get direct connections and referrals, but that is not happening at a fast enough rate to satsify employer demand for vetted employees. Additionally it's putting the onus on the employees entirely for making sure they are a good fit for the companies. If they truly have a shortage of workers they are going to either reduce the stringency of their requirements, raise wages to entice workers to come to them instead of competitior's, or train employees. The SF area does some of the wage raising, when they aren't colluding with each other to keep wages down, but the rest of the country seems content to just complain about a lack of qualified people without doing anything to change their situation
        scarface74 8y ago
        I kept a spreadsheet of when I was looking for a job in 2015 using recruiters. This was after filtering for location and salary. This was all within a two week period. I network like crazy - with people who know where the jobs are. Leads: 16 Position filled: 4 Phone Screens: 9 I didn’t like tech stack: 2 Didn’t have qualifications and didn’t apply: 1 In person interviews: 4 Offers: 4 Rejections: 0 - I took myself out of the running after accepting an offer. I actually had 6 phone screens in one day from different companies. Notice that out of the 16 “leads” none of my resumes disappeared down a black hole. I always knew where I was in the process and I knew that someone in the position to hire me was considering my resume. Also, I don’t contribute my 100% non failure rate to being a special snowflake. I was able to discuss each lead with a recruiter and had inside knowledge of what the hiring manager was looking for. I’ve worked with recruiters to hire people. The good ones form a professional relationship with the hiring company. Back in 2012, I left a job with nothing in the pipeline for a new job. I called one of the recruiters I had been working with and within 4 days I had an offer making $10K more with what was then a Fortune 10 company. My last job search last year took 7 days from the time I started looking to getting an offer with the salary, (slightly higher), the technology stack, the location, and the company size I wanted. The pickings do of course get a lot slimmer though the higher your salary requirements.
        lovich 8y ago
        I don't doubt there's people like you who can make it happen and have it better off but there's no way your results are typical. I don't know of a single fortune 10 company that even has a hiring pipeline that could be gotten through in 4 days unless you know someone with some pull, and the entire industry can't be friends with that small group of people. Additionally look at all the work you've put in. "Networking like crazy" as you say. This obviously had benefits for you and is probably worth it for the vast majority of engineers. However, why is this amount of work necessary to find a job in an industry that constantly complains about a shortage of engineers? It seems like they're crying wolf when they say there's a shortage but the hiring process gets more insane every year
  - scarface74 8y ago
    (I can’t reply to your second comment directly) Whats harder is finding a job you'll love with great career advancement opportunities, using the tech stack you like, with a manager you "click" with, and where you're appreciated. What does “career advancement” look like to someone who doesn’t care about management? Career advancement for me means keeping up with the most marketable tech stack and getting paid as much as I can in my local market and still staying hands on. “The tech stack I like” is whatever stack pays the most and has a reasonable amount of opportunities. By definition, a popular tech stack will have plenty of openings where you can stay current. I choose to work for small companies with highly technical managers. A small company can’t afford to silo you. As far as “clicking with the manager” that kind of just happens with more technical managers when they trust your judgement. The only “appreciation” I need is to be paid market rates based on my skill set. I’ve had managers “appreciate me” verbally but didn’t push for the salary I wanted - I left. I’ve been offered signing bonuses by recruiters who really wanted to get thier cut of my first years salary. I’ve turned them down. Out of my three requirements for a job - right technology, right environment, and money. Money is the least important as long as I’m making the median for my market/skill set.
shados 8y ago
It really is in deed. "Node" or "Java" or "Rails" engineers are a dime a dozen. There are exceptions and it's more complicated than an explanation on Hacker News can do justice to, but generally speaking, the places you'd want to work for, including (but not limited to) the likes of Facebook, Google, and other smaller but worthwhile companies are hiring for general skills, not tech du jour knowledge. No Java shop worth its salt gives a flying duck if you know Java's syntax. They care if you understand how to build systems. Caching, queuing, service to service communication, algorithms, performance, debugging etc. If you learnt that stuff in Go instead of Java, who cares? Yes, the job reqs and lazy recruiters will come at you with a list of keywords, but that's usually not what the hiring manager truly cares about.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Most of the worlds developers aren’t working for FAANG companies. I would even say that many aren’t working for software companies. They are working for corporate America writing bespoked apps that just want to get stuff done and want to hire someone who can hit the ground running. If you are coming in at a senior level to a C# position with prior knowledge of Java. You’re going to waste a lot of time. It’s not about the language. It’s about the ecosystem, knowing the popular third party packages that will make your life easier etc. How many Java developers would come in knowing how to use LINQ efficiently and know the difference between customers.Where(c => c.Age > 65).ToList() And customers.ToList().Where(c => c.Age > 65) when using Entity Framework or the Mongo linq driver? They would both give you the same result but one is much more efficient. You can’t imagine the number of times I’ve seen people use a Func<T,bool> instead of an Expression<Func<T,bool>> and wonder why their code is so slow in production. How many Java developers would migrate toward log4net because they have heard of log4j instead of using the much better Serilog? How many would come in knowing how to efficiently use ASP.Net Core and plug things in the pipeline? Knowing the language is the easy part. Knowing the frameworks and the ecosystem takes time. No one would hopefully ever say a Windows system admin could function at the same level with Linux as someone who had Linux experience. That’s just like the “AWS Architects” who translate all of their knowledge of on prem deployments to AWS without knowing AWS best practices and wondering why the same infrastructure costs more. I’ve been a hiring “manager” - more like the architect. I’ve got deadlines and deliverables. Why am I going to hire a Go developer when I can find perfectly competent C# developers that have the skill set I need? Why would I learn Go knowing that the local market wants C#, Java, and Node developers?

That's... basically the opposite of true.

by avarun 8y ago

That's... basically the opposite of true.

scarface74 8y ago

Outside of Silicon Valley in the rest of the country -- look at the job reqs.

shados 8y ago
Job reqs are a lie, and a lot of jobs (I almost want to say most, but I don't have data to back it up) never even make it as far as the job boards. The ones that do are often not even drafted by the hiring manager, and just written by someone who asked "So, what kind of skills would be nice?". Most companies will absolutely hire outside of what's written. They don't have much choice unless they're looking for entry level folks. Competent senior folks get snatched up very, very quickly, so if you're looking for something too specific, the req will stay open forever. At least, that's been my experience working in both Canada and in the US, and I've never been close to Silicon Valley (or the west coast for that matter, so if its true there, I stand corrected).
- scarface74 8y ago
  I don’t do job boards either - I always go through recruiters. But if you are a “senior Dev” that knows Java and they are looking for a Node Developer, you aren’t going to be anywhere on thier list to hire.
  - shados 8y ago
    to me, recruiters === job boards. The interesting openings are through direct connections and referrals.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Recruiters are not the same as job boards. I have recruiters that I’ve worked with for years as both a job seeker and hiring employees, I have met them for lunch. I can sit back, tell recruiters I’m looking for a salary that pays no less than $X and sit back. It’s never taken me more than a month from the time I’ve started looking to having another job.
    - lovich 8y ago
      It's always going to be better for you if you get direct connections and referrals, but that is not happening at a fast enough rate to satsify employer demand for vetted employees. Additionally it's putting the onus on the employees entirely for making sure they are a good fit for the companies. If they truly have a shortage of workers they are going to either reduce the stringency of their requirements, raise wages to entice workers to come to them instead of competitior's, or train employees. The SF area does some of the wage raising, when they aren't colluding with each other to keep wages down, but the rest of the country seems content to just complain about a lack of qualified people without doing anything to change their situation
      - scarface74 8y ago
        I kept a spreadsheet of when I was looking for a job in 2015 using recruiters. This was after filtering for location and salary. This was all within a two week period. I network like crazy - with people who know where the jobs are. Leads: 16 Position filled: 4 Phone Screens: 9 I didn’t like tech stack: 2 Didn’t have qualifications and didn’t apply: 1 In person interviews: 4 Offers: 4 Rejections: 0 - I took myself out of the running after accepting an offer. I actually had 6 phone screens in one day from different companies. Notice that out of the 16 “leads” none of my resumes disappeared down a black hole. I always knew where I was in the process and I knew that someone in the position to hire me was considering my resume. Also, I don’t contribute my 100% non failure rate to being a special snowflake. I was able to discuss each lead with a recruiter and had inside knowledge of what the hiring manager was looking for. I’ve worked with recruiters to hire people. The good ones form a professional relationship with the hiring company. Back in 2012, I left a job with nothing in the pipeline for a new job. I called one of the recruiters I had been working with and within 4 days I had an offer making $10K more with what was then a Fortune 10 company. My last job search last year took 7 days from the time I started looking to getting an offer with the salary, (slightly higher), the technology stack, the location, and the company size I wanted. The pickings do of course get a lot slimmer though the higher your salary requirements.
        lovich 8y ago
        I don't doubt there's people like you who can make it happen and have it better off but there's no way your results are typical. I don't know of a single fortune 10 company that even has a hiring pipeline that could be gotten through in 4 days unless you know someone with some pull, and the entire industry can't be friends with that small group of people. Additionally look at all the work you've put in. "Networking like crazy" as you say. This obviously had benefits for you and is probably worth it for the vast majority of engineers. However, why is this amount of work necessary to find a job in an industry that constantly complains about a shortage of engineers? It seems like they're crying wolf when they say there's a shortage but the hiring process gets more insane every year
- scarface74 8y ago
  (I can’t reply to your second comment directly) Whats harder is finding a job you'll love with great career advancement opportunities, using the tech stack you like, with a manager you "click" with, and where you're appreciated. What does “career advancement” look like to someone who doesn’t care about management? Career advancement for me means keeping up with the most marketable tech stack and getting paid as much as I can in my local market and still staying hands on. “The tech stack I like” is whatever stack pays the most and has a reasonable amount of opportunities. By definition, a popular tech stack will have plenty of openings where you can stay current. I choose to work for small companies with highly technical managers. A small company can’t afford to silo you. As far as “clicking with the manager” that kind of just happens with more technical managers when they trust your judgement. The only “appreciation” I need is to be paid market rates based on my skill set. I’ve had managers “appreciate me” verbally but didn’t push for the salary I wanted - I left. I’ve been offered signing bonuses by recruiters who really wanted to get thier cut of my first years salary. I’ve turned them down. Out of my three requirements for a job - right technology, right environment, and money. Money is the least important as long as I’m making the median for my market/skill set.

shados 8y ago

It really is in deed. "Node" or "Java" or "Rails" engineers are a dime a dozen. There are exceptions and it's more complicated than an explanation on Hacker News can do justice to, but generally speaking, the places you'd want to work for, including (but not limited to) the likes of Facebook, Google, and other smaller but worthwhile companies are hiring for general skills, not tech du jour knowledge. No Java shop worth its salt gives a flying duck if you know Java's syntax. They care if you understand how to build systems. Caching, queuing, service to service communication, algorithms, performance, debugging etc. If you learnt that stuff in Go instead of Java, who cares? Yes, the job reqs and lazy recruiters will come at you with a list of keywords, but that's usually not what the hiring manager truly cares about.

scarface74 8y ago
Most of the worlds developers aren’t working for FAANG companies. I would even say that many aren’t working for software companies. They are working for corporate America writing bespoked apps that just want to get stuff done and want to hire someone who can hit the ground running. If you are coming in at a senior level to a C# position with prior knowledge of Java. You’re going to waste a lot of time. It’s not about the language. It’s about the ecosystem, knowing the popular third party packages that will make your life easier etc. How many Java developers would come in knowing how to use LINQ efficiently and know the difference between customers.Where(c => c.Age > 65).ToList() And customers.ToList().Where(c => c.Age > 65) when using Entity Framework or the Mongo linq driver? They would both give you the same result but one is much more efficient. You can’t imagine the number of times I’ve seen people use a Func<T,bool> instead of an Expression<Func<T,bool>> and wonder why their code is so slow in production. How many Java developers would migrate toward log4net because they have heard of log4j instead of using the much better Serilog? How many would come in knowing how to efficiently use ASP.Net Core and plug things in the pipeline? Knowing the language is the easy part. Knowing the frameworks and the ecosystem takes time. No one would hopefully ever say a Windows system admin could function at the same level with Linux as someone who had Linux experience. That’s just like the “AWS Architects” who translate all of their knowledge of on prem deployments to AWS without knowing AWS best practices and wondering why the same infrastructure costs more. I’ve been a hiring “manager” - more like the architect. I’ve got deadlines and deliverables. Why am I going to hire a Go developer when I can find perfectly competent C# developers that have the skill set I need? Why would I learn Go knowing that the local market wants C#, Java, and Node developers?