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I don't see any policies around types of businesses, code of conduct, adherence to Do-Not-Call policies or information regarding privacy or security rigor appli

by crsv 8y ago

I don't see any policies around types of businesses, code of conduct, adherence to Do-Not-Call policies or information regarding privacy or security rigor applied to the citizens that would be effected by this platform. This just seems like an amoral SaaS service I kind of want to die. Fast.

kposehn 8y ago
While your commentary around privacy and security is valid (they could indeed reference that more clearly), referring to them outright as an “Amoral SaaS service [you] kind of want to die” is extremely judgmental and out of place on HN.
- crsv 8y ago
  I disagree. I think I laid out a fair argument for my opinion, and I believe I have the right to express that opinion in our lovely open internet as much as they have a right to be a thing in the first place. Me wanting this to cease to exist isn't calling in to question their right to be there in the first place. I think if we ever lose our voice in calling out things that seem detrimental to our society at large for the sake of not seeming "judgemental", then we've devoided all platforms of value - especially HN.
  - kposehn 8y ago
    My issue is that you made a blanket judgement of something with seemingly little input or reasoning. Why do you feel that way? Go into some detail at the very least, instead of just dismissing it out of hand. The security questions could be answered by then more easily instead of having to dig - I get that. But that’s not enough imho. You have the right to express your opinion, for sure. But when you make a blanket judgement with little you’re going against HN guidelines: > Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - dsr_ 8y ago
      At this point, anyone starting a business to be an outbound call-center or to send email on behalf of third parties should be assumed to be a bad actor, and the burden of proof is on them. This wasn't a blanket judgement without input. This was a judgement based on the available evidence, and particularly pointing at holes where one would expect a white hat to have solid documents. I wonder if this is one of those startups where YC said "this team is solid, they'll likely pivot into something worthwhile".
    - gitgud 8y ago
      In my opinion, he did outline a few reasons for why he felt that way, albeit concise. The HN guidelines do not expect everyone to be positive. Negative feedback that's justified is important in any community.
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
  > is extremely judgmental I agree. > and out of place on HN. I disagree. Why should we be discouraged from calling out what appears to be (at best) amoral behavior?
  - kposehn 8y ago
    Just because we hate those damn robe calls doesn’t mean this isn’t a valid, high quality product. Look at the TOS and you can see that they are very strict about how they allow customers to use the platform. Before considering something amoral we should always do some digging: > CUSTOMERS WHO USE THE SERVICES > Upcall reserves the right to terminate access to the Upcall platform and terminate services for any reason allowed under the Agreement, or if Customer is determined by Upcall in its sole discretion to have violated any law or any provision herein. > Customer will remain responsible and ensure that all data submitted through Upcall to Freelancer Users are compliant. This includes, without limitation, ensuring that Customer has the proper consent, established business relationship (“EBR”) or other exemption to call the telephone numbers submitted. This also includes ensuring that any scripting submitted, or product offered therein, complies with applicable laws. > As applicable by Customer’s industry, Customer will maintain standards necessary to comply with all applicable laws, rules, regulations and ordinances, including, without limitation, CI Level , 1, and HIPAA, and Financial Services Modernization Act rules and regulations.. > Customer will ensure that its processes and scripts comply with call recording law, timezone (“curfew”) laws, rules, regulations, ordinances and licensing obligations. > Customer is solely responsible and liable for compliance with all caller ID and “spoofing” rules at all times. > Any Upcall Customer who makes use of the Services (“Customers”) of Upcall or its Freelancer Users must ensure that its products and marketing are in full compliance with all applicable laws and regulations, including without limitation, all state, federal and international: (1) product-specific offer regulations; (2) Do-Not-Call (“DNC”) list prohibitions, including by obtaining a SAN and providing that to Upcall upon request; (3) licensing and bonding requirements; (4) consumer cancellation rights; (5) wireless calling restrictions; (6) restrictions on the use of automatic telephone dialing systems and pre-recorded messages; (7) opt-out rules; (8) mandatory disclosures (9) intellectual property rights and restrictions; and (10) document retention regulations. Customer agrees that it has read and understands the FTC’s Telemarketing Sales Rule (“TSR”) and the FCC’s Telephone Consumer Protection Act (“TCPA”), and all other applicable laws and regulations. Customer should review these rules with Customer’s own legal counsel to ensure that Customer understands and is fully compliant. Upcall does not assume responsibility for ensuring that Customer’s marketing meets applicable legal requirements. Rather, Upcall is relying on Customer and Freelancer, as the marketing experts, for that expertise and legal compliance. Upcall will not assume any liability if Freelancer or Customer suffers any loss due to an actual or alleged law violation. Notwithstanding anything contained herein to the contrary, Customer shall indemnify and defend Upcall (including for its attorney’s fees) from and against any actual or alleged TCPA or other law violation related to the calls or Services provided hereunder.
- nvr219 8y ago
  how is "extremely judgmental" out of place on HN
  - kposehn 8y ago
    Shallow dismissals are agains the guidelines as noted in my other comment. I’m all for not liking something, but we shouldn’t do it with a wave of the hand. We’re better than that.
    - pavel_lishin 8y ago
      The comment you responded to didn't seem shallow to me at all.
taf2 8y ago
It’s called out explicitly in the list of features - TCPA compliance. It’s one of the most important things you need to provide and yes it is up to the end user to follow these rules correctly. It’s no different than how HIPAA/PCI polices work - you are responsible for following the rules.

by crsv 8y ago

kposehn 8y ago

While your commentary around privacy and security is valid (they could indeed reference that more clearly), referring to them outright as an “Amoral SaaS service [you] kind of want to die” is extremely judgmental and out of place on HN.

crsv 8y ago
I disagree. I think I laid out a fair argument for my opinion, and I believe I have the right to express that opinion in our lovely open internet as much as they have a right to be a thing in the first place. Me wanting this to cease to exist isn't calling in to question their right to be there in the first place. I think if we ever lose our voice in calling out things that seem detrimental to our society at large for the sake of not seeming "judgemental", then we've devoided all platforms of value - especially HN.
- kposehn 8y ago
  My issue is that you made a blanket judgement of something with seemingly little input or reasoning. Why do you feel that way? Go into some detail at the very least, instead of just dismissing it out of hand. The security questions could be answered by then more easily instead of having to dig - I get that. But that’s not enough imho. You have the right to express your opinion, for sure. But when you make a blanket judgement with little you’re going against HN guidelines: > Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsr_ 8y ago
    At this point, anyone starting a business to be an outbound call-center or to send email on behalf of third parties should be assumed to be a bad actor, and the burden of proof is on them. This wasn't a blanket judgement without input. This was a judgement based on the available evidence, and particularly pointing at holes where one would expect a white hat to have solid documents. I wonder if this is one of those startups where YC said "this team is solid, they'll likely pivot into something worthwhile".
  - gitgud 8y ago
    In my opinion, he did outline a few reasons for why he felt that way, albeit concise. The HN guidelines do not expect everyone to be positive. Negative feedback that's justified is important in any community.
pavel_lishin 8y ago
> is extremely judgmental I agree. > and out of place on HN. I disagree. Why should we be discouraged from calling out what appears to be (at best) amoral behavior?
- kposehn 8y ago
  Just because we hate those damn robe calls doesn’t mean this isn’t a valid, high quality product. Look at the TOS and you can see that they are very strict about how they allow customers to use the platform. Before considering something amoral we should always do some digging: > CUSTOMERS WHO USE THE SERVICES > Upcall reserves the right to terminate access to the Upcall platform and terminate services for any reason allowed under the Agreement, or if Customer is determined by Upcall in its sole discretion to have violated any law or any provision herein. > Customer will remain responsible and ensure that all data submitted through Upcall to Freelancer Users are compliant. This includes, without limitation, ensuring that Customer has the proper consent, established business relationship (“EBR”) or other exemption to call the telephone numbers submitted. This also includes ensuring that any scripting submitted, or product offered therein, complies with applicable laws. > As applicable by Customer’s industry, Customer will maintain standards necessary to comply with all applicable laws, rules, regulations and ordinances, including, without limitation, CI Level , 1, and HIPAA, and Financial Services Modernization Act rules and regulations.. > Customer will ensure that its processes and scripts comply with call recording law, timezone (“curfew”) laws, rules, regulations, ordinances and licensing obligations. > Customer is solely responsible and liable for compliance with all caller ID and “spoofing” rules at all times. > Any Upcall Customer who makes use of the Services (“Customers”) of Upcall or its Freelancer Users must ensure that its products and marketing are in full compliance with all applicable laws and regulations, including without limitation, all state, federal and international: (1) product-specific offer regulations; (2) Do-Not-Call (“DNC”) list prohibitions, including by obtaining a SAN and providing that to Upcall upon request; (3) licensing and bonding requirements; (4) consumer cancellation rights; (5) wireless calling restrictions; (6) restrictions on the use of automatic telephone dialing systems and pre-recorded messages; (7) opt-out rules; (8) mandatory disclosures (9) intellectual property rights and restrictions; and (10) document retention regulations. Customer agrees that it has read and understands the FTC’s Telemarketing Sales Rule (“TSR”) and the FCC’s Telephone Consumer Protection Act (“TCPA”), and all other applicable laws and regulations. Customer should review these rules with Customer’s own legal counsel to ensure that Customer understands and is fully compliant. Upcall does not assume responsibility for ensuring that Customer’s marketing meets applicable legal requirements. Rather, Upcall is relying on Customer and Freelancer, as the marketing experts, for that expertise and legal compliance. Upcall will not assume any liability if Freelancer or Customer suffers any loss due to an actual or alleged law violation. Notwithstanding anything contained herein to the contrary, Customer shall indemnify and defend Upcall (including for its attorney’s fees) from and against any actual or alleged TCPA or other law violation related to the calls or Services provided hereunder.
nvr219 8y ago
how is "extremely judgmental" out of place on HN
- kposehn 8y ago
  Shallow dismissals are agains the guidelines as noted in my other comment. I’m all for not liking something, but we shouldn’t do it with a wave of the hand. We’re better than that.
  - pavel_lishin 8y ago
    The comment you responded to didn't seem shallow to me at all.

taf2 8y ago

It’s called out explicitly in the list of features - TCPA compliance. It’s one of the most important things you need to provide and yes it is up to the end user to follow these rules correctly. It’s no different than how HIPAA/PCI polices work - you are responsible for following the rules.