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A good test is your view on the 2nd Iraq War. For background, as facts matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War "

A good test is your view on the 2nd Iraq War. For background, as facts matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War "After 9/11, the Bush Administration national security team actively debated an invasion of Iraq. On the day of the attacks, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld asked his aides for: "best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit Saddam Hussein at same time. Not only Osama bin Laden."[72] President Bush spoke with Rumsfeld on 21 November and instructed him to conduct a confidential review of OPLAN 1003, the war plan for invading Iraq.[73] Rumsfeld met with General Tommy Franks, the commander of U.S. Central Command, on 27 November to go over the plans. A record of the meeting includes the question "How start?", listing multiple possible justifications for a U.S.–Iraq War.[71][74] The rationale for invading Iraq as a response to 9/11 has been widely questioned, as there was no cooperation between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda.[75]" Is this good, neutral, evil?

neuland 8y ago
I'm not really sure how the 2nd Iraq War is a testament to American evil. It sounds to me like you're saying the invasion was unjustified? But, is there really anyone who thought Saddam was a good guy? He was very obviously a brutal dictator. So, at the very least there's one fewer of those around. Sure, WMD turned out to be a total fabrication and the Iraq War ended up being a misguided attempt at democracy building. But saying that it shows America's inherent evil nature is very odd from my point of view. Even if the only outcome (as it seems to be) is getting rid of a dictator, that seems like a good thing. Though, you could argue the cost doesn't seem to have been worth it looking back now. I guess I'm failing to imagine how it could possibly be in the evil bucket and not just neutral or good.
- shadowtree 8y ago
  I did not state my personal opinion, just asked a question. I believe public forums are great to post facts and questions, but horrible to debate opinions.
  - neuland 8y ago
    I just was shocked to hear that anyone considered it was even possibly an evil thing and not just misguided. So, I am actually happy to see another poster's short comment about civilian casualties, destruction, and other impacts of war. That was kinda a perfect answer I think. You could see it as evil from a utilitarian standpoint because the suffering under Saddam was less than the suffering it took to displace him. I have no idea how to weigh those two, but that's an area where I could see someone coming down on the side of letting the dictatorship continue is "less bad". Though I don't really agree with that position.
- danharaj 8y ago
  > Even if the only outcome (as it seems to be) is getting rid of a dictator, Innocent people died, friend.
  - sneak 8y ago
    Hundreds of thousands of people. Some estimates put the number at a million.
  - neuland 8y ago
    This is a very good answer. It puts us in the situation of weighing the suffering and death of the war against the continued Saddam rule. That's an interesting debate where it is possible that the invasion was less good.
    - danharaj 8y ago
      Do you understand how bonkers it sounds to play calculus with millions of lives in the service of geopolitics?
      - eeeuo 8y ago
        Did you feel the invasion of Germany in 1944 was in the services of geopolitics? It's not geopolitics to try and determine if fewer people would die with or without Saddam in power. Saddam's chemical attacks against civilians are well documented and not widely disputed. His internal security apparatus was open with their brutality in order to induce fear on the population. I think that the 2nd Iraq War was a mistake, particularly how the government misled the people, but I find it absolutely baffling when people will not even honestly address the situation in good faith. You cannot simply argue that "many people civilians died as a result of the Iraq War therefore it's bad" without addressing the situation beforehand. Lots of people died during the Allied invasion of Germany, but I think most people would agree that it was the correct thing to do.
        danharaj 8y ago
        > I think that the 2nd Iraq War was a mistake, particularly how the government mislead the people, but I find it absolutely baffling when people will not even honestly address the situation in good faith. The justification for the war was obviously fabricated, so I don't know what sort of good faith you are asking for. Perhaps to debate some post hoc justification for a thoughtless decision that was paid for with the lives of people who didn't have a choice in the matter? People who touch such questions are only going to injure their humanity. By the way, when you think about the question of WW2 in terms of "when to intervene" instead of "whether to intervene at all", it becomes as murky and vicious a question as can be, and it ought to make anyone queasy to examine in close detail the decisions made throughout the period. That said, the neoconservative methodology of deciding who to bomb has no justification and people who want to debate that have more urgent issues to address.
- watwut 8y ago
  > Even if the only outcome (as it seems to be) is getting rid of a dictator, that seems like a good thing. It also empowered radicals and created perfect conditions for them to thrive. By radicals I mean terrorists, proponents of Islamic state and such. Guns and ammunition ended in their hands that would not ended there. Regardless of results, calling it merely misguided honest mistake in search of democracy building is naive or a lie. The war was not motivated by altruism and so called mistakes were simply lies. There us such thing as too much of benefit of doubt. That does not mean other countries leaders are less cynical or more altrustic through, merely they have less power.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I don't think evil is the right term. Arrogant is a better one. I think they really believed that the people in Iraq were waiting for the the US to liberate them and would become loyal allies immediately.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  > But, is there really anyone who thought Saddam was a good guy? Yes. The US, just 20 years prior during the Iran-Iraq war [1]. That's kind of the point. Since WWII the US engages in or supports wars (which kill lots of people) out of naked self-interest while trying to paint themselves as morally good. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War#Iraq_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War#Iraq_2
- gandhium 8y ago
  _Active_ WMD program turned to be a total fabrication. WMDs were a-plenty in Iraq: "American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs" from https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middlee...
- botverse 8y ago
  I think it’s very idealistic to think that the war was for helping the oppressed people of Iraq. Iraq War costed $2.4 trillion[1], figure out who pocketed it and then you will have a picture closer to reality. That picture tells me that the intentions were more corrupt than pure. [1] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War

neuland 8y ago

I'm not really sure how the 2nd Iraq War is a testament to American evil. It sounds to me like you're saying the invasion was unjustified? But, is there really anyone who thought Saddam was a good guy? He was very obviously a brutal dictator. So, at the very least there's one fewer of those around. Sure, WMD turned out to be a total fabrication and the Iraq War ended up being a misguided attempt at democracy building. But saying that it shows America's inherent evil nature is very odd from my point of view. Even if the only outcome (as it seems to be) is getting rid of a dictator, that seems like a good thing. Though, you could argue the cost doesn't seem to have been worth it looking back now. I guess I'm failing to imagine how it could possibly be in the evil bucket and not just neutral or good.

shadowtree 8y ago
I did not state my personal opinion, just asked a question. I believe public forums are great to post facts and questions, but horrible to debate opinions.
- neuland 8y ago
  I just was shocked to hear that anyone considered it was even possibly an evil thing and not just misguided. So, I am actually happy to see another poster's short comment about civilian casualties, destruction, and other impacts of war. That was kinda a perfect answer I think. You could see it as evil from a utilitarian standpoint because the suffering under Saddam was less than the suffering it took to displace him. I have no idea how to weigh those two, but that's an area where I could see someone coming down on the side of letting the dictatorship continue is "less bad". Though I don't really agree with that position.
danharaj 8y ago
> Even if the only outcome (as it seems to be) is getting rid of a dictator, Innocent people died, friend.
- sneak 8y ago
  Hundreds of thousands of people. Some estimates put the number at a million.
- neuland 8y ago
  This is a very good answer. It puts us in the situation of weighing the suffering and death of the war against the continued Saddam rule. That's an interesting debate where it is possible that the invasion was less good.
  - danharaj 8y ago
    Do you understand how bonkers it sounds to play calculus with millions of lives in the service of geopolitics?
    - eeeuo 8y ago
      Did you feel the invasion of Germany in 1944 was in the services of geopolitics? It's not geopolitics to try and determine if fewer people would die with or without Saddam in power. Saddam's chemical attacks against civilians are well documented and not widely disputed. His internal security apparatus was open with their brutality in order to induce fear on the population. I think that the 2nd Iraq War was a mistake, particularly how the government misled the people, but I find it absolutely baffling when people will not even honestly address the situation in good faith. You cannot simply argue that "many people civilians died as a result of the Iraq War therefore it's bad" without addressing the situation beforehand. Lots of people died during the Allied invasion of Germany, but I think most people would agree that it was the correct thing to do.
      - danharaj 8y ago
        > I think that the 2nd Iraq War was a mistake, particularly how the government mislead the people, but I find it absolutely baffling when people will not even honestly address the situation in good faith. The justification for the war was obviously fabricated, so I don't know what sort of good faith you are asking for. Perhaps to debate some post hoc justification for a thoughtless decision that was paid for with the lives of people who didn't have a choice in the matter? People who touch such questions are only going to injure their humanity. By the way, when you think about the question of WW2 in terms of "when to intervene" instead of "whether to intervene at all", it becomes as murky and vicious a question as can be, and it ought to make anyone queasy to examine in close detail the decisions made throughout the period. That said, the neoconservative methodology of deciding who to bomb has no justification and people who want to debate that have more urgent issues to address.
watwut 8y ago
> Even if the only outcome (as it seems to be) is getting rid of a dictator, that seems like a good thing. It also empowered radicals and created perfect conditions for them to thrive. By radicals I mean terrorists, proponents of Islamic state and such. Guns and ammunition ended in their hands that would not ended there. Regardless of results, calling it merely misguided honest mistake in search of democracy building is naive or a lie. The war was not motivated by altruism and so called mistakes were simply lies. There us such thing as too much of benefit of doubt. That does not mean other countries leaders are less cynical or more altrustic through, merely they have less power.
maxxxxx 8y ago
I don't think evil is the right term. Arrogant is a better one. I think they really believed that the people in Iraq were waiting for the the US to liberate them and would become loyal allies immediately.
AlexandrB 8y ago
> But, is there really anyone who thought Saddam was a good guy? Yes. The US, just 20 years prior during the Iran-Iraq war [1]. That's kind of the point. Since WWII the US engages in or supports wars (which kill lots of people) out of naked self-interest while trying to paint themselves as morally good. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War#Iraq_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War#Iraq_2
gandhium 8y ago
_Active_ WMD program turned to be a total fabrication. WMDs were a-plenty in Iraq: "American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs" from https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middlee...
botverse 8y ago
I think it’s very idealistic to think that the war was for helping the oppressed people of Iraq. Iraq War costed $2.4 trillion[1], figure out who pocketed it and then you will have a picture closer to reality. That picture tells me that the intentions were more corrupt than pure. [1] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War