5 ms·

This attitude is so foreign to me that you could very well be a Marsian. Rich people exploiting poor people to bare the risks and burdens of pregnancy and labor

by jahaja 8y ago

This attitude is so foreign to me that you could very well be a Marsian. Rich people exploiting poor people to bare the risks and burdens of pregnancy and labor? Have you even considered the degree of desperation one would need to be in to agree to such an arrangement?

obmelvin 8y ago
Is it really exploitation if you pay someone who is well informed 50k [0]? Are there not legitimate cases where someone has significant risk of carrying a child themselves (e.g. extremely tiny body and hips)? Modern medicine has greatly reduced the risk - if you find someone who is informed, doesn't have these same risk factors and well compensated I honestly don't see a problem with it. There very well may be cases where the surrogate is being exploited, but I contest that the idea as a whole is fundamentally unethical. [0] - https://www.westcoastsurrogacy.com/surrogate-program-for-intended-parents/surrogate-mother-cost https://www.westcoastsurrogacy.com/surrogate-program-for-int...
- jahaja 8y ago
  Yes. I don't like this kind of rationalization where one lifts up edge-cases without regard to its proportionality. - "I was able to buy a really nice house after discovering Herbalife".
- philipov 8y ago
  If you pay attention you will discover that ethics does not ever rest on the fundamental essence of an idea, but on the particular human circumstances in which it most often occurs. By stripping away those circumstances, and adopting the most optimistic view possible, you are cherry-picking: all things can be ethical when you remove them from reality and imagine they only occur under the most favorable interpretation. There is a theory under which totalitarian dictatorship may be benevolent, but we consider it unethical for politicians or the military to establish one, because reality differs from theory. Likewise, professors dating students or managers dating direct reports can be totally consensual and free from coercion. It is unethical nonetheless, because we recognize what happens in practice is more important than the rare counterexample. Do not confuse ethics with moral absolutism!
  - obmelvin 8y ago
    Thank you, I appreciate your reply and for you altering my thinking in a much more constructive manner than the other poster.
marvin 8y ago
I feel that's rather a failure of the social safety net rather than something inherently immoral about surrogacy. You could certainly say the same about joining the military, or taking a hard manual labor job. I don't think anyone should be forced by circumstance to do any of these things; they should be a completely voluntary option for people who are kept safe from poverty through through a functioning welfare system.
- jahaja 8y ago
  Why do we need to rationalize these things with a hypothetical best-case scenario?
  - marvin 8y ago
    Well, I live in a country that does have a socialized welfare system. So the best-case scenario isn't entirely hypothetical. Everyone who earns money pays ~50-75% of their income in various taxes, and everyone who hits economic or medical hardship gets enough help that they'll survive and keep a minimum of dignity. No one starves, no one has to be homeless, no one is forced to work a job that ruins their mental or physical health, although some do come close before they are diagnosed and get permanent (paid) medical leave. Almost no one dies from diagnosed and treatable diseases, with a few exceptions in cases where treatment is extremely expensive and ineffective (e.g. treatment costs $1 million per year and increases life expectancy by 2 years). We do still have drug addicts, homeless people, people with massive gambling debts, people with untreated psychological illnesses and prostitutes of many types. I think it's an interesting philosophical discussion to which degree those who suffer the most on the lowest rungs of my society are victims (in the sense that society should have done more to help them). The vast majority are certainly _offered_ a large amount of help. Some seem unable or unwilling to accept help. Many do accept help, but keep making self-destructive decisions, and it is considered unethical to use force to stop them. Most receive help and live decent lives. Interestingly, acts like surrogacy, prostitution and donating blood or plasma for money is still illegal here. Even though few better systems could be devised to ensure that on one is forced to take part in these against better judgement. "No one should be allowed to sell their body" is a mantra you'll hear a lot, but there hasn't been a very comprehensive discussion about the pros and cons of this.

by jahaja 8y ago

obmelvin 8y ago

Is it really exploitation if you pay someone who is well informed 50k [0]? Are there not legitimate cases where someone has significant risk of carrying a child themselves (e.g. extremely tiny body and hips)? Modern medicine has greatly reduced the risk - if you find someone who is informed, doesn't have these same risk factors and well compensated I honestly don't see a problem with it. There very well may be cases where the surrogate is being exploited, but I contest that the idea as a whole is fundamentally unethical. [0] - https://www.westcoastsurrogacy.com/surrogate-program-for-intended-parents/surrogate-mother-cost https://www.westcoastsurrogacy.com/surrogate-program-for-int...

jahaja 8y ago
Yes. I don't like this kind of rationalization where one lifts up edge-cases without regard to its proportionality. - "I was able to buy a really nice house after discovering Herbalife".
philipov 8y ago
If you pay attention you will discover that ethics does not ever rest on the fundamental essence of an idea, but on the particular human circumstances in which it most often occurs. By stripping away those circumstances, and adopting the most optimistic view possible, you are cherry-picking: all things can be ethical when you remove them from reality and imagine they only occur under the most favorable interpretation. There is a theory under which totalitarian dictatorship may be benevolent, but we consider it unethical for politicians or the military to establish one, because reality differs from theory. Likewise, professors dating students or managers dating direct reports can be totally consensual and free from coercion. It is unethical nonetheless, because we recognize what happens in practice is more important than the rare counterexample. Do not confuse ethics with moral absolutism!
- obmelvin 8y ago
  Thank you, I appreciate your reply and for you altering my thinking in a much more constructive manner than the other poster.

marvin 8y ago

I feel that's rather a failure of the social safety net rather than something inherently immoral about surrogacy. You could certainly say the same about joining the military, or taking a hard manual labor job. I don't think anyone should be forced by circumstance to do any of these things; they should be a completely voluntary option for people who are kept safe from poverty through through a functioning welfare system.

jahaja 8y ago
Why do we need to rationalize these things with a hypothetical best-case scenario?
- marvin 8y ago
  Well, I live in a country that does have a socialized welfare system. So the best-case scenario isn't entirely hypothetical. Everyone who earns money pays ~50-75% of their income in various taxes, and everyone who hits economic or medical hardship gets enough help that they'll survive and keep a minimum of dignity. No one starves, no one has to be homeless, no one is forced to work a job that ruins their mental or physical health, although some do come close before they are diagnosed and get permanent (paid) medical leave. Almost no one dies from diagnosed and treatable diseases, with a few exceptions in cases where treatment is extremely expensive and ineffective (e.g. treatment costs $1 million per year and increases life expectancy by 2 years). We do still have drug addicts, homeless people, people with massive gambling debts, people with untreated psychological illnesses and prostitutes of many types. I think it's an interesting philosophical discussion to which degree those who suffer the most on the lowest rungs of my society are victims (in the sense that society should have done more to help them). The vast majority are certainly _offered_ a large amount of help. Some seem unable or unwilling to accept help. Many do accept help, but keep making self-destructive decisions, and it is considered unethical to use force to stop them. Most receive help and live decent lives. Interestingly, acts like surrogacy, prostitution and donating blood or plasma for money is still illegal here. Even though few better systems could be devised to ensure that on one is forced to take part in these against better judgement. "No one should be allowed to sell their body" is a mantra you'll hear a lot, but there hasn't been a very comprehensive discussion about the pros and cons of this.