4 ms·

I think the argument is that the USA is a democracy (at least more so than the others), and therefore it's fair to criticise the USA as a whole (i.e. the citize

I think the argument is that the USA is a democracy (at least more so than the others), and therefore it's fair to criticise the USA as a whole (i.e. the citizens of the USA) for the failures of the US Government. A friend of mine made the same comment recently in regards to condemning human rights abuses in Israel. You can condemn until your face is blue the human rights violations in Iran, but there's not a lot the Iranian population can do about it. Israel is a democracy, and therefore (at least in theory) the government represents the people. Another point to note is that HN is US-centric. Most people here will have first-hand experience of the USA, but not necessarily of China, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.

imbokodo 8y ago
> Israel is a democracy, and therefore (at least in theory) the government represents the people. Netanyahu says the West Bank is Israel, and within Israel de facto and de jure it is. Yet Palestinians in the West Bank can not vote, and there is talk in the Knesset of disenfranchising Palestinians outside of the West Bank. Yet a Jew from Brooklyn can move to the West Bank, seize a Palestinian's land, and vote in elections. Yet this is termed a democracy in comparison to Iran.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Not necessarily for the Palestinians, but the Israelis definitely have a say in what their government allows. If they wanted to, they could stop that practice, and restore the Palestinians. As such, all Israelis are partially to blame for what's happened.
- golergka 8y ago
  > Netanyahu says the West Bank is Israel, and within Israel de facto and de jure it is It's funny, because I never saw huge red signs warning me "if you're israeli, don't come here, you're gonna get killed" around Petakh Tikva. > Yet Palestinians in the West Bank can not vote They can vote in PA elections - if they finally to end their political clusterfuck and do something, of course.
  - imbokodo 8y ago
    > They can vote in PA elections I can vote in my local Elks Club elections as well. People in the West Bank live in Israel but can not vote in Israeli elections. Actually - Palestinians living in Israel in the West Bank can't vote. A haredi Jew from Brooklyn who arrived in the West Bank yesterday and stole land from a Palestinian family who has been there for centuries, he has a right to vote in the elections of the country he is living in.
394549 8y ago
> A friend of mine made the same comment recently in regards to condemning human rights abuses in Israel. You can condemn until your face is blue the human rights violations in Iran, but there's not a lot the Iranian population can do about it. Israel is a democracy, and therefore (at least in theory) the government represents the people. The problem with that line of thinking is that it twists perceptions, which can and does lead people to believe falsehoods. Harm can come when those falsehoods are acted upon (for voting, policy, activism, etc.). To use a little hyperbole: if you focus on condemning democracies for human rights abuses and ignore (to various degrees) the worse abuses of non-democracies, you may end up just delegitimizing democracy in the eyes of many, because you've created the impression that democracies are the bad guys and are the main human rights violators.
eli_gottlieb 8y ago
I find it hard to argue that the USA is more of a democracy than Iran, though admittedly, that's because Iran has a very "American" system where anyone can run in elections, provided the ruling elite approves them as within-bounds for the system as a whole. Both could perhaps be characterized as "managed democracies" with highly authoritarian law-enforcement systems more than either is a full-blown dictatorship. Israel has a different problem: its political spectrum is defined as doves on the Left, hawks on the Right, and real dovishness became a causalty of the Second Intifada. Coupled to extensive corruption, the Israeli system has become considerably less democratic than it used to be, but it still has the problem that nobody is willing to run against the current government on a winning platform more than that legions of candidates or parties aren't allowed to stand for election.
- israel_53763 8y ago
  You make some weird, intellectual oh-so-clever-with-italics comment, and no one can follow it. Israel is a democracy. On level with USA, England, etc. It also has many of the same problems. Multi parties are encouraged. Courts are independent and respect and very powerful. Freedom of speech is respected. Property rights are strong. Business is free. Work force is protected. If you want a change - please fight for it. But don't start by making horrible comments about your country. It is a long, long, long way from Indian corruption, east European dictatorship, or Arab social breakdown.
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    Oh shut up, Mr. Misrad haChutz. If you actually read what I said, you'd notice that I actually labeled Israel the sanest and most democratic of the bunch I'm criticizing: it has a multi-party framework, albeit one in which major media are explicitly allied to the ruling party and the PM smears journalists. But, as I said, Israel's chief problem is that the center and the left don't seem to know how to stop condescending to Mizrahim and the Periferiyah and actually stand for election on a platform that addresses the facts of Israeli life today.
d0lph 8y ago
Iranians can revolt, most huge social changes requires revolt. Government is a result of the people, if the majority were not ok with it I think it would not last long. To me this implies on some level that the people of the country like their government.
- Hasknewbie 8y ago
  Except not that long ago the Iranians DID revolt, following a sham election where the reformists/progressives should have won. They got into the streets. And then they got shot. You seem to be living in a phantasy world where subjects of a dictature are just "asking for it", and a 50%-or-more majority should magically change everything. That's not how power works. Money and bullets, you see, matter more than ballots.
  - d0lph 8y ago
    The US did the same, revolted against a well armed adversary. The people are the power, paper money is no match.
    - kozikow 8y ago
      The revolting side was well armed as well. It's not the case in Saudi Arabia.
      - d0lph 8y ago
        Can you cite something for this? Everything I read is to the contrary, that they are well armed.
        kozikow 8y ago
        I find it surprising, but indeed, firearms per capita amount is pretty high for Saudi Arabia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c... .

imbokodo 8y ago

> Israel is a democracy, and therefore (at least in theory) the government represents the people. Netanyahu says the West Bank is Israel, and within Israel de facto and de jure it is. Yet Palestinians in the West Bank can not vote, and there is talk in the Knesset of disenfranchising Palestinians outside of the West Bank. Yet a Jew from Brooklyn can move to the West Bank, seize a Palestinian's land, and vote in elections. Yet this is termed a democracy in comparison to Iran.

s73v3r_ 8y ago
Not necessarily for the Palestinians, but the Israelis definitely have a say in what their government allows. If they wanted to, they could stop that practice, and restore the Palestinians. As such, all Israelis are partially to blame for what's happened.
golergka 8y ago
> Netanyahu says the West Bank is Israel, and within Israel de facto and de jure it is It's funny, because I never saw huge red signs warning me "if you're israeli, don't come here, you're gonna get killed" around Petakh Tikva. > Yet Palestinians in the West Bank can not vote They can vote in PA elections - if they finally to end their political clusterfuck and do something, of course.
- imbokodo 8y ago
  > They can vote in PA elections I can vote in my local Elks Club elections as well. People in the West Bank live in Israel but can not vote in Israeli elections. Actually - Palestinians living in Israel in the West Bank can't vote. A haredi Jew from Brooklyn who arrived in the West Bank yesterday and stole land from a Palestinian family who has been there for centuries, he has a right to vote in the elections of the country he is living in.

394549 8y ago

> A friend of mine made the same comment recently in regards to condemning human rights abuses in Israel. You can condemn until your face is blue the human rights violations in Iran, but there's not a lot the Iranian population can do about it. Israel is a democracy, and therefore (at least in theory) the government represents the people. The problem with that line of thinking is that it twists perceptions, which can and does lead people to believe falsehoods. Harm can come when those falsehoods are acted upon (for voting, policy, activism, etc.). To use a little hyperbole: if you focus on condemning democracies for human rights abuses and ignore (to various degrees) the worse abuses of non-democracies, you may end up just delegitimizing democracy in the eyes of many, because you've created the impression that democracies are the bad guys and are the main human rights violators.

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

I find it hard to argue that the USA is more of a democracy than Iran, though admittedly, that's because Iran has a very "American" system where anyone can run in elections, provided the ruling elite approves them as within-bounds for the system as a whole. Both could perhaps be characterized as "managed democracies" with highly authoritarian law-enforcement systems more than either is a full-blown dictatorship. Israel has a different problem: its political spectrum is defined as doves on the Left, hawks on the Right, and real dovishness became a causalty of the Second Intifada. Coupled to extensive corruption, the Israeli system has become considerably less democratic than it used to be, but it still has the problem that nobody is willing to run against the current government on a winning platform more than that legions of candidates or parties aren't allowed to stand for election.

israel_53763 8y ago
You make some weird, intellectual oh-so-clever-with-italics comment, and no one can follow it. Israel is a democracy. On level with USA, England, etc. It also has many of the same problems. Multi parties are encouraged. Courts are independent and respect and very powerful. Freedom of speech is respected. Property rights are strong. Business is free. Work force is protected. If you want a change - please fight for it. But don't start by making horrible comments about your country. It is a long, long, long way from Indian corruption, east European dictatorship, or Arab social breakdown.
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  Oh shut up, Mr. Misrad haChutz. If you actually read what I said, you'd notice that I actually labeled Israel the sanest and most democratic of the bunch I'm criticizing: it has a multi-party framework, albeit one in which major media are explicitly allied to the ruling party and the PM smears journalists. But, as I said, Israel's chief problem is that the center and the left don't seem to know how to stop condescending to Mizrahim and the Periferiyah and actually stand for election on a platform that addresses the facts of Israeli life today.

d0lph 8y ago

Iranians can revolt, most huge social changes requires revolt. Government is a result of the people, if the majority were not ok with it I think it would not last long. To me this implies on some level that the people of the country like their government.

Hasknewbie 8y ago
Except not that long ago the Iranians DID revolt, following a sham election where the reformists/progressives should have won. They got into the streets. And then they got shot. You seem to be living in a phantasy world where subjects of a dictature are just "asking for it", and a 50%-or-more majority should magically change everything. That's not how power works. Money and bullets, you see, matter more than ballots.
- d0lph 8y ago
  The US did the same, revolted against a well armed adversary. The people are the power, paper money is no match.
  - kozikow 8y ago
    The revolting side was well armed as well. It's not the case in Saudi Arabia.
    - d0lph 8y ago
      Can you cite something for this? Everything I read is to the contrary, that they are well armed.
      - kozikow 8y ago
        I find it surprising, but indeed, firearms per capita amount is pretty high for Saudi Arabia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c... .