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FTA: > absolute bastards like Turkey’s Erdogan and Hungary’s Orban. I wonder what Viktor Orbán has done according to Doctorow to be put in the same ballpark as

by ggdG 8y ago

FTA: > absolute bastards like Turkey’s Erdogan and Hungary’s Orban. I wonder what Viktor Orbán has done according to Doctorow to be put in the same ballpark as Erdogan. From https://turkeypurge.com/ https://turkeypurge.com/ : Turkey’s post-coup crackdown: 151,967 dismissed / 140,452 detained / 79,774 arrested / 3,003 schools, dormitories and universities shut down / 5,822 academics lost jobs / 4,463 judges, prosecutors dismissed / 189 media outlets shut down / 319 journalists arrested since July 15, 2016 / as of June 25, 2018

pjc50 8y ago
This kind of thing: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/democracy-is-on-the-brink-in-hungary-so-why-is-no-one-talking-about-it-a7883876.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/democracy-is-o... It's not quite so advanced in violence as Turkey, but it's definitely along the same path.
- tim333 8y ago
  Yeah it took a decade or so for Erdogan to start doing really bad stuff. Give Orban time to get in his swing.
- ggdG 8y ago
  I read nothing in that article that hints at any government violence in Hungary, so I don't get why you even bring this up. Sure, there's lots of innuendo about how the EU is trying to teach a lesson about democracy and human rights to a reluctant Hungary. The thing is, if we have to choose among Orbán and Jüncker the leader with the most democratic legitimacy, then Orbán wins hands down. Hardly anyone in the EU voted for Jüncker, except for a few Luxemburgers. Hardly anyone knew what the program of his party, the EPP, was at the time of the election. Orbán on the other hand enjoys a huge amount of support from the Hungarians. You may disagree with his viewpoints, but that doesn't make his leadership any less democratic. He is careful not to follow the example of Western Europe with its disastrous policies of mass immigration and - as a result - islamisation. This viewpoint is shared with all governments in Eastern Europe and - at last - a growing number of people in Western Europe. He tries to raise awareness about the Soros-funded no-borders NGOs, which are an attempt from outside the country to make the Hungarian press and politicians talk and behave a certain way. The article in the Independent tries to paint this as anti-Semitism, but in another article they admit that even Israel disagrees with this viewpoint: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/george-soros-israel-hungary-posters-defence-anti-immigrant-campaign-vilify-businessman-a7836316.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/george-soros... The only reason the unelected leaders of the EU put pressure on Orbán is because he poses a threat to their power. Of course they use words like "human rights" and "democracy" to cover their real motivations. Look at the non-reaction of the EU when the Spanish Rajoy government locked up Catalonian political prisoners (by the way, do you know of any polical prisoners in Hungary?). Why didn't they defend democracy and human rights at that time? The reason is that the current EU leaders see the Catalonian independence movement as a threat to their power.
  - soundwave106 8y ago
    When comparing Hungary to Turkey, the "awareness of Soros" thing actually is a caution point to me. From my point of view, Orban is using Soros as a boogeyman, with huge over-emphasis on this single personality, far more than Soros's actual impact in Hungary, to project disagreement with certain attitudes and things going on in the world. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/once-fringe-soros-conspiracy-theory-takes-center-stage-in-hungarian-election/2018/03/17/f0a1d5ae-2601-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.60d284f46aa3 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/once-fringe-soro...) In Turkey, many of the statistics you cite are in part because Erdogan also had a boogeyman: Fethullah Gülen. Many of the statistics you cite for Turkey were "justified" by Erdogan's accusation that the coup was part of a Gülen plot. (It is uncertain, of course, that this was actually the case, but it was certainly a convenient excuse for rounding up all the "adversaries"). Hungary may be nothing like Turkey at this time, but never trust a leader with an authoritarian streak and a convenient "enemy boogeyman" to demonize against.
dmortin 8y ago
Unlike Turkey, Hungary is a small country surrounded by EU countries, dependent on EU economic relations, so there are limits how far Orban can go. But he and his cronies have pocketed a lot of EU money, that's for sure.

by ggdG 8y ago

pjc50 8y ago

This kind of thing: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/democracy-is-on-the-brink-in-hungary-so-why-is-no-one-talking-about-it-a7883876.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/democracy-is-o... It's not quite so advanced in violence as Turkey, but it's definitely along the same path.

tim333 8y ago
Yeah it took a decade or so for Erdogan to start doing really bad stuff. Give Orban time to get in his swing.
ggdG 8y ago
I read nothing in that article that hints at any government violence in Hungary, so I don't get why you even bring this up. Sure, there's lots of innuendo about how the EU is trying to teach a lesson about democracy and human rights to a reluctant Hungary. The thing is, if we have to choose among Orbán and Jüncker the leader with the most democratic legitimacy, then Orbán wins hands down. Hardly anyone in the EU voted for Jüncker, except for a few Luxemburgers. Hardly anyone knew what the program of his party, the EPP, was at the time of the election. Orbán on the other hand enjoys a huge amount of support from the Hungarians. You may disagree with his viewpoints, but that doesn't make his leadership any less democratic. He is careful not to follow the example of Western Europe with its disastrous policies of mass immigration and - as a result - islamisation. This viewpoint is shared with all governments in Eastern Europe and - at last - a growing number of people in Western Europe. He tries to raise awareness about the Soros-funded no-borders NGOs, which are an attempt from outside the country to make the Hungarian press and politicians talk and behave a certain way. The article in the Independent tries to paint this as anti-Semitism, but in another article they admit that even Israel disagrees with this viewpoint: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/george-soros-israel-hungary-posters-defence-anti-immigrant-campaign-vilify-businessman-a7836316.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/george-soros... The only reason the unelected leaders of the EU put pressure on Orbán is because he poses a threat to their power. Of course they use words like "human rights" and "democracy" to cover their real motivations. Look at the non-reaction of the EU when the Spanish Rajoy government locked up Catalonian political prisoners (by the way, do you know of any polical prisoners in Hungary?). Why didn't they defend democracy and human rights at that time? The reason is that the current EU leaders see the Catalonian independence movement as a threat to their power.
- soundwave106 8y ago
  When comparing Hungary to Turkey, the "awareness of Soros" thing actually is a caution point to me. From my point of view, Orban is using Soros as a boogeyman, with huge over-emphasis on this single personality, far more than Soros's actual impact in Hungary, to project disagreement with certain attitudes and things going on in the world. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/once-fringe-soros-conspiracy-theory-takes-center-stage-in-hungarian-election/2018/03/17/f0a1d5ae-2601-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.60d284f46aa3 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/once-fringe-soro...) In Turkey, many of the statistics you cite are in part because Erdogan also had a boogeyman: Fethullah Gülen. Many of the statistics you cite for Turkey were "justified" by Erdogan's accusation that the coup was part of a Gülen plot. (It is uncertain, of course, that this was actually the case, but it was certainly a convenient excuse for rounding up all the "adversaries"). Hungary may be nothing like Turkey at this time, but never trust a leader with an authoritarian streak and a convenient "enemy boogeyman" to demonize against.

dmortin 8y ago

Unlike Turkey, Hungary is a small country surrounded by EU countries, dependent on EU economic relations, so there are limits how far Orban can go. But he and his cronies have pocketed a lot of EU money, that's for sure.