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We may be headed to a possible future in which technology makes it possible to decouple "romantic" impulses from the reproductive drive. Surrogacy at scale, art

We may be headed to a possible future in which technology makes it possible to decouple "romantic" impulses from the reproductive drive. Surrogacy at scale, artificial wombs, even gamete design and editing are all possible within this generation's lifetime. Concomitant relaxations in regulations regarding sexual work and the commodification of sexual satisfaction would be one possible outcome. The philosophic quandary then shifts from sex to the nature of love. Is it simply another innate need with primal place atop the human hierarchy? Or an evolution-tuned biochemical survival mechanism that can itself be synthesized akin to the "pregnancy substitutes" in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World? Again, back to Plato (as all inquiries lead), but this time consider The Republic and its ideal family-state. Plato envisioned a community of parents, and a dissolution of the edicts of traditional marriage. In which the entire village parented each child as if they were their own. And privileges associated with hereditary and parentage begin to disappear in deference to the needs of the state. Another modern evolution in traditional practice is the use of Tantric and Orgasmic Meditation. Hindu philosophy usually places desire beyond prosperity, knowledge, duty and spiritual perfection. But it is fairly easy to see how cults wholly consecrated to Venus may arise.

watwut 8y ago
Knowing what we know about human psychology, emotions and behavior, this proposal alone make me think that Plato did not understood much about those. You can't raise 30 children "like few of your own" not even if another 30 adults mess with that too.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  There are certain tribes in human history that did exactly this for centuries.
fortythirteen 8y ago
> We may be headed to a possible future in which technology makes it possible to decouple "romantic" impulses from the reproductive drive. This type of techno-hubris, which thinks it can undo millions of years of evolutionary biology, leads to the type of utopic visions that devolve into murderous chaos. What you're proposing isn't terribly different than eugenics.
Spooky23 8y ago
The technology nightmare that you suggest does fit neatly into the ideal in Plato's republic. Remember as well that in the Republic, it wasn't just that the city parented each child... but that the city was the parent to each child, and children were unaware of their birth parents. It doesn't work -- the idealized creche in The Republic in reality is a land of neglect and a ripe target for abusers. While they aren't necessarily fun and are probably too inflexible, the themes and positions on sexuality that you find in many religions are rooted fundamentally in humanity. Personally, I have always found The Republic to be offensive to human dignity. Leaders aren't philosopher kings. Guardians aren't selflessly devoted to the ideals of the state. A future of sex workers as industrialized sex toys, military dictatorship, outsourced pregnancy and genetic engineering is a dark future inded.
wnstn 8y ago
We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now.
otabdeveloper1 8y ago
> Surrogacy at scale, artificial wombs, even gamete design and editing are all possible within this generation's lifetime. No, they aren't. Moreover, surrogacy is just as unethical as slavery, expect it to be banned worldwide soon.
- jpatokal 8y ago
  Wait, what? What's wrong with surrogacy if everybody involved consents?
  - fortythirteen 8y ago
    (Playing devil's advocate) The child doesn't consent to a life of being outside of that social norm. One could make the argument that it's in the same ballpark as raising a child in religious extremism.
    - virmundi 8y ago
      I know you were playing devil's advocate, but that argument can be said of any child. It's functionally slavery to be born in Africa since the living conditions are terrible. It's functionally slavery to conceive a black child in America since it's statistically likely to be poor. It's functionally slavery to have a child born to rich parents since there is a high likelihood of emotional abuse due to drugged out mothers and workaholic fathers.
      - fortythirteen 8y ago
        That is an absolute cavalcade of stereotypes. Even then it has a major hole. In your vision those children will still be born into the societal norms of their larger group.
        virmundi 8y ago
        Then we shouldn't allow gays to breed with lesbians to create a timeshare child. The same is true that the US should have actively stopped the intermarriage of blacks and whites for the same reason. India needs to stop the procreation of Christians since the social norm is Hindu.
virmundi 8y ago
I've been thinking about something like this but from a different angle for a while since the #MeToo. The war between the sexes is heating up. With 3rd wave feminism calling for the mistreatment of men, rape charges required to destroy lives without proof, courts stacked against men in divorces, schools trying to teach boys their gender is the cause of all the world's ills, and the general diva nature washing over women on social media, how long until men just say, "I'm out, but still want a family so I'm going with tech"? The people researching these devices and techniques are largely men. Bio-hackers are largely men. In their spare time with the spare money that they have since they've sworn off the dating culture, they could build, probably in community with other like-minded men, the labs at home. Essentially you could see a male "makers" community around not involving women. I know we're a long way from this, but I wonder if its possible. Add to this sexbots and we might get there sooner rather than later.
- 32qwef 8y ago
  > With 3rd wave feminism calling for the mistreatment of men Nobody calls for mistreating men. Well maybe Valerie Salonas. Can you really not distinguish between mainstream feminism and violent wackjobs? > schools trying to teach boys their gender is the cause of all the world's ills No they're not. > general diva nature washing over women on social media This just sounds like a "women are emotional" argument, which isn't helpful. There's plenty examples of men being outrageous on the internet. (Your comment is one of them) > Essentially you could see a male "makers" community around not involving women. You act like this is an original insight. You're just parroting what some incels are saying. You really don't wanna be involved with that group. Please understand when you're talking with them, you're inside a bubble where bile and hate is normalized.
  - virmundi 8y ago
    1) Manspreading and mansplaining are two light examples of calling for male harm. Add to this many of the SJW's call for safe space where white males are banded. 2) There is the war against boys. The whole thing comes down to maleness is bad: energy, competition, etc. I wish I could find the quote by the british author who sat in on a class where the boys were. https://hellogiggles.com/news/teachers-treat-boys-and-girls-differently-in-one-way-that-can-be-especially-bad-for-boys/ https://hellogiggles.com/news/teachers-treat-boys-and-girls-... 3) Actually I'm worried about incels and the lost generation and all that. I said I was thinking about. I'm married. My wife and I sit on the sidelines hoping the whole system doesn't crash. The difference between a 1960's MGTOW and now is that these men could buy land and establish a private genetics homeland. There goes your social cohesion.

watwut 8y ago

Knowing what we know about human psychology, emotions and behavior, this proposal alone make me think that Plato did not understood much about those. You can't raise 30 children "like few of your own" not even if another 30 adults mess with that too.

wetpaws 8y ago
There are certain tribes in human history that did exactly this for centuries.

fortythirteen 8y ago

> We may be headed to a possible future in which technology makes it possible to decouple "romantic" impulses from the reproductive drive. This type of techno-hubris, which thinks it can undo millions of years of evolutionary biology, leads to the type of utopic visions that devolve into murderous chaos. What you're proposing isn't terribly different than eugenics.

Spooky23 8y ago

The technology nightmare that you suggest does fit neatly into the ideal in Plato's republic. Remember as well that in the Republic, it wasn't just that the city parented each child... but that the city was the parent to each child, and children were unaware of their birth parents. It doesn't work -- the idealized creche in The Republic in reality is a land of neglect and a ripe target for abusers. While they aren't necessarily fun and are probably too inflexible, the themes and positions on sexuality that you find in many religions are rooted fundamentally in humanity. Personally, I have always found The Republic to be offensive to human dignity. Leaders aren't philosopher kings. Guardians aren't selflessly devoted to the ideals of the state. A future of sex workers as industrialized sex toys, military dictatorship, outsourced pregnancy and genetic engineering is a dark future inded.

wnstn 8y ago

We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now.

otabdeveloper1 8y ago

> Surrogacy at scale, artificial wombs, even gamete design and editing are all possible within this generation's lifetime. No, they aren't. Moreover, surrogacy is just as unethical as slavery, expect it to be banned worldwide soon.

jpatokal 8y ago
Wait, what? What's wrong with surrogacy if everybody involved consents?
- fortythirteen 8y ago
  (Playing devil's advocate) The child doesn't consent to a life of being outside of that social norm. One could make the argument that it's in the same ballpark as raising a child in religious extremism.
  - virmundi 8y ago
    I know you were playing devil's advocate, but that argument can be said of any child. It's functionally slavery to be born in Africa since the living conditions are terrible. It's functionally slavery to conceive a black child in America since it's statistically likely to be poor. It's functionally slavery to have a child born to rich parents since there is a high likelihood of emotional abuse due to drugged out mothers and workaholic fathers.
    - fortythirteen 8y ago
      That is an absolute cavalcade of stereotypes. Even then it has a major hole. In your vision those children will still be born into the societal norms of their larger group.
      - virmundi 8y ago
        Then we shouldn't allow gays to breed with lesbians to create a timeshare child. The same is true that the US should have actively stopped the intermarriage of blacks and whites for the same reason. India needs to stop the procreation of Christians since the social norm is Hindu.

virmundi 8y ago

I've been thinking about something like this but from a different angle for a while since the #MeToo. The war between the sexes is heating up. With 3rd wave feminism calling for the mistreatment of men, rape charges required to destroy lives without proof, courts stacked against men in divorces, schools trying to teach boys their gender is the cause of all the world's ills, and the general diva nature washing over women on social media, how long until men just say, "I'm out, but still want a family so I'm going with tech"? The people researching these devices and techniques are largely men. Bio-hackers are largely men. In their spare time with the spare money that they have since they've sworn off the dating culture, they could build, probably in community with other like-minded men, the labs at home. Essentially you could see a male "makers" community around not involving women. I know we're a long way from this, but I wonder if its possible. Add to this sexbots and we might get there sooner rather than later.

32qwef 8y ago
> With 3rd wave feminism calling for the mistreatment of men Nobody calls for mistreating men. Well maybe Valerie Salonas. Can you really not distinguish between mainstream feminism and violent wackjobs? > schools trying to teach boys their gender is the cause of all the world's ills No they're not. > general diva nature washing over women on social media This just sounds like a "women are emotional" argument, which isn't helpful. There's plenty examples of men being outrageous on the internet. (Your comment is one of them) > Essentially you could see a male "makers" community around not involving women. You act like this is an original insight. You're just parroting what some incels are saying. You really don't wanna be involved with that group. Please understand when you're talking with them, you're inside a bubble where bile and hate is normalized.
- virmundi 8y ago
  1) Manspreading and mansplaining are two light examples of calling for male harm. Add to this many of the SJW's call for safe space where white males are banded. 2) There is the war against boys. The whole thing comes down to maleness is bad: energy, competition, etc. I wish I could find the quote by the british author who sat in on a class where the boys were. https://hellogiggles.com/news/teachers-treat-boys-and-girls-differently-in-one-way-that-can-be-especially-bad-for-boys/ https://hellogiggles.com/news/teachers-treat-boys-and-girls-... 3) Actually I'm worried about incels and the lost generation and all that. I said I was thinking about. I'm married. My wife and I sit on the sidelines hoping the whole system doesn't crash. The difference between a 1960's MGTOW and now is that these men could buy land and establish a private genetics homeland. There goes your social cohesion.