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Thousands Say Kratom Cured Their Addiction, Government Says It’s Another Opioid

116 points by pmcpinto 8y ago

feikal 8y ago
it's good.
bluedevil2k 8y ago
Congress isn’t just considering banning it “just because”. There’s certainly a ton a lobbying money (ie bribes) by big pharma to make sure this un-patentable drug can’t cut into their own profits on painkillers. Kratom simply doesn’t have the lobbying power to make it a legal drug.
- tcbawo 8y ago
  I wonder how much of its effectiveness in moderating addiction comes from the fact that the active ingredients have not been isolated and available in concentrated form. Already, people seem to be studying different strains. Is it only a matter of time before it becomes abused? Having no first-hand experience with addiction, opioids, or kratom, I am skeptical since many of the article's subjects remain daily kratom users, often with increasing supply. Keeping it affordable with more socially mild symptoms allows these people to live functional lives. But it seems that the goal is not to attempt abstinence. Why?
  - bonniemuffin 8y ago
    Abstinence for its own sake is frankly not all that useful to society. Harm reduction is a much more important goal. Millions of Americans are hooked on coffee and have withdrawals if they don't drink it, but nobody's up in arms about our caffeine dependence, precisely because it has very little in the way of social harms associated with it. If we can convert drug use with huge social harms (e.g. heroin, oxycontin) into drug use with negligible social harms (e.g. kratom), that would basically solve the opiate crisis. In my mind the goal isn't to stop people from using opiates-- it's to stop them from dying, committing crimes, and running their lives into the ground due to opiates.
    - tcbawo 8y ago
      A positive step, to be sure. It sounds like further study is warranted, especially once the active ingredients in kratom are isolated and concentrated. The coca leaf was used for millennia, but became socially harmful in its concentrated form.
      - 18pfsmt 8y ago
        Some might say the same thing about refined sugar without the naturally occurring fiber it always occurs alongside in nature.
    - lev99 8y ago
      > but nobody's up in arms about our caffeine dependence, precisely because it has very little in the way of social harms associated with it. Caffeine is associated with reducing the amount of sleep[0], which is associated with almost all illnesses [1]. [0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/sleep-newzzz/201312/new-details-caffeine-s-sleep-disrupting-effects https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/sleep-newzzz/20131... [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-through-life-in-an-underslept-state https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/5580588...
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  Well, and uh, the part where it's an opioid that can be addictive that is wholly unregulated and being sold by any number of vendors online that are sourcing the product from god only knows where and selling it as a safe supplement.
- joncrane 8y ago
  I have heard the same, and it's sickening.
- snarf21 8y ago
  You are absolutely right. If they do ban it, isn't it just going to go the way of pot and be grown in basements, etc.? I don't know if this is harder to grow than pot or not.
marsrover 8y ago
The real question is why does anyone care either way?
nugga 8y ago
Why is there still a prevalent knee-jerk attitude towards some drugs (or external catalysts that affect the body)? Are the lawmakers uninformed on the real effects the drugs have? Do they know but they can't take a 'pro sense' stance because of (irrational) fears that they'd get booted by their constituents? Are they influenced (lobbied) by powerful players to resist pouring more money towards research or being more open to moving towards legalization? Do they actually know but don't care?
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Are the lawmakers uninformed on the real effects the drugs have? Maybe to some extent. Do they know but they can't take a 'pro sense' stance because of (irrational) fears that they'd get booted by their constituents? Perhaps. If so, it would be the result of decades of successful propaganda. See below. Are they influenced (lobbied) by powerful players to resist pouring more money towards research or being more open to moving towards legalization? Yes.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  There's a neo-prohabitionist streak that most boomers (which most politicians are and also most voters) have. Consuming any mind altering substance that isn't culturally ingrained (i.e. alcohol or tobacco) is morally wrong, and therefore should be regulated and banned if possible. A lot of them seem to be under the impression that if recreational drugs were legal, everybody would spend their waking hours high and no work would ever get done. My boss recently claimed that they shouldn't legalise recreational cannabis because everyone would be high all the time, yet somehow people manage to avoid being drunk all the time, or at least most of us do.
DickScarington 8y ago
It bothers me that in all the hype about Kratom the fact it does produce dependence is obscured. I know a few folks who have had a terrible time getting off of Kratom. Only one of which is totally free of it. All of their cases were similar, going from a small brew a day the first week to doing 6-10g a day within weeks. People I know who still take it regularly remind me of addicts to other substances - claiming they can quit at any time but since they aren't having a problem they don't choose to quit. Yet they also constantly crave Kratom and freak out when they can't get it. Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. That still doesn't excuse the unrelenting hype that Kratom is safe and that it isn't addictive.
- refurb 8y ago
  It does produce dependence if taken often enough. However, compared to the harm caused by illicit opioids (or even prescription opioids) doesn’t this seem like a low priority? So someone is spending $100 or $200 per month on their kratom. They aren’t committing crimes to pay for it, they aren’t overdosing and dying in the street and they aren’t getting diseases by sharing needles. It doesn’t seem like a major health cocern. Kind of like tobacco without the second hand smoke or lung cancer. Sure it would be better if people didn’t do it, but that’s true of a lot of things.
  - woah 8y ago
    You would see the same level of harm reduction if other opiates were legal. My guess is that what makes kratom less harmful is the legal status.
    - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
      False. Kratom (mitragyna speciosa) is unique in that it does not seem to trigger respiratory depression. So it’s not just the legal status. However it is true that drugs like heroin (when pure) are quite safe overall - aside from the respiratory depresssion overdose scenario.
marcelluspye 8y ago
I'm willing to accept that there's some complexity in the regulation of substances people use for medicinal purposes, whether they come out of the ground or a lab. The DEA is an abhorrent institution, though. And while it's clear the writers of the article swing one way about it, the DEA and FDA seem to be acting like they want any excuse to ban the stuff. When they start locking people up for selling Kratom, and then a year later big pharma comes out with "Kratolizine" at 50x the price, I won't be surprised.
- scoggs 8y ago
  Your post's content is the crux of the problem from my POV. The powers that be and the bodies that make decisions about the legality of substances and scheduling of them seem much more interested in general profit and preventing the average citizen from using any sort of alternate route or remedy to combat their addiction. If they focused even a slight percentage of their energy and efforts into actually helping these people or offering real alternatives in terms of addiction care / help I'd be much more willing to believe things they are doing and saying but as it stands everything just seems like a smoke screen or straw man to allow them to continue conducting business as usual.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    I'm curious what the state of affairs is in Europe wrt Kratom, or do they tend to coincidentally come to the same policy conclusions as the FDA?
    - 18pfsmt 8y ago
      "In Europe, as of 2011, the plant was controlled in Denmark, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Sweden.[15] In the UK, since 2016, the sale, import, and export of kratom are prohibited under the Psychoactive Substances Act."
EGreg 8y ago
I constantly see ads for NALOXONE. Does it use Kratom?
- atomical 8y ago
  It has the opposite effect.
- dsr_ 8y ago
  No. Naloxone (Narcan) is an opioid receptor blocker that prevents other opioids from having an effect while not producing any pleasurable or pain-relieving effects itself. Interestingly, it's made from oxymorphone, one of the more powerful members of the opioid family.
GordonS 8y ago
It's not just another opioid - mitragynine doesn't recruit beta-arrestin, the pathway associated with tolerance build up and side effects like respiratory depression. I'm certainly not convinced it does cause dependence, especially not to the same degree as most opioids. As a sample size of 1, I was always able to stop taking kratom without suffering any kind of withdrawal, and there are plenty of other similar anecdotes on reddit (to be fair, there are plenty that do talk of cold-like symptoms when stopping it)
- pnsr 8y ago
  As a sample size of 1, and a person who has used a lot of different substances (alcohol, cigarettes, amphetamines, psychedelics, marijuana flowers and extracts), been addicted to quite a few of them, and kicked all of them, Kratom has been by far the hardest drug to stop. After reading online about the potential benefits and mildness of Kratom, I started taking it occasionally, and slowly had to ramp up usage frequency because I would start feeling cold and uneasy when not on it, I pretty soon I had to take it consistently to stay at my baseline level. I managed to taper off down to a manageable level (about half a coffee spoon every 5 hours), but going beyond that was impossible without feeling the withdrawal effect pretty much full force, I decided it was best to bite the bullet and stop cold turkey. Extremely cold feeling coming from inside on a very hot day, awful restlessness (which made it impossible to sleep more than 2 or 3 hours a night for the first week, before I had to give up and go on sick leave), the most intense feeling of being devoid of energy both physically and psychologically, and pretty much all the symptoms of a strong cold. The extreme sleepiness and impossibility to fall asleep because of the restlessness is one of the most frustrating combos I've ever experienced, but I'm sure that's all too familiar to opioids users. If you're trying to kick off an existing opioid addiction (or maybe have some sort of pain where the usual pain meds channel are not available?), this might make it more manageable I'm sure, but all the analogies to coffee or tea as "Just a thing you can take if you wanna calm down a bit" can be extremely dangerous to people that have essentially no need for it, and particularly people with an addictive behavior.
  - 0110011 8y ago
    We all have our weaknesses I guess. For me, nothing was harder to quit than pot. I've regularly used opiates, kratom, and even tobacco and I can pick them up and put them down with ease and lack of noticable side effects (short of a few depressed days). Weed took weeks of dealing with lack of sleep, agression and obsessive thoughts before I broke free, and that was after many failed attempts. I have personally seen several friends kick regular pill habits with kratom and they got off it OK. We should discuss the downsides but from what I've seen the folks with kratom problems just took way too much(as addicts will do, I guess).
SirensOfTitan 8y ago
From the article, it seems like the government wants to ban the plant in fear of a new opioid crisis—all while opioid class drugs are relatively accessible. It’s amazing how large of a grip big pharmaceutical companies have on the US government.
ryanmercer 8y ago
It is an opioid, that many people get quite dependent on. Methadone is an opioid that helps people get off heroin, it also has people that get addicted to it. Just because something, when used a certain way, has positive benefit doesn't mean it should just be sold to anyone that wants some.
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  One twist to the equation is that Kratom isn't that pleasurable to people who aren't already addicted to opioids. I bought a pack after I had surgery- I never finished it and never expect to take it again. In a large way it feels gross and unpleasant, completely unlike codeine/vicodin/oxycodone. (I don't feel like I ever got addicted, despite taking it daily for a couple weeks, and haven't taken any opioids in the 8 months since the pain stopped interfering with my life)
  - ryanmercer 8y ago
    That's true of many addictive things though. Problem is, the stuff is unregulated and coming from all sorts of sources most of which probably have zero quality control and then it's readily avialable to buy for anyone with access to the internet and a credit cad. Sure, people can also go on a DNM and with bitcoin they bought with a credit card order as much cocaine or heroin to their door as they want but most people see cocaine and heroin as bad and would never do that. However, when you have people on podcasts and YouTube going on and on about how great kratom is, how kratom makes their anxiety better, how kratom helped their friend's cousin's room mate's girlfriend get off heroin, then people are like "oh shit, I'm gonna order this panacea" and you have people that likely would never have tried some random opioid ordering the substance and consuming it. People will try something if it becomes part of a (their) culture or when someone they put trust in talks well of it (podcast host, YouTuber they follow). Look at when people discovered hacking productivity with Modafinil, you had domestic and foreign websites popping up like crazy selling real modafinil, fake modafinil, super harsh on the liver pro-drug versions of modafinil, to anyone that had a credit card all because a few tech journalists reported on how some in silicon valley were using it to hack their productivity. Look at 'k2' and similar synthetic cannabinoids that popped up several years ago. People were all 'hey man, it's legal and like weed!' and within months it was for sale in every headshop and even many independently owned gas stations. And whoops, once you had a bunch of people trying it turns out it wasn't exactly like weed and people were having basically bad trips and even seizures from mild to moderate comsumption and then state after state quickly started making it illegal. Then 'bath salts'. Go back 20ish years and kids were fucking around with freon and dying because it quickly entered certain cultures as a free way to get high at home. We live in a world where ideas are highly contagious. While kratom does seem to have benefit in some cases when used correctly and does have a traditional use, it just shouldn't be something that John Q Public can hop on the clearnet and order for self-medicating.
grawprog 8y ago
Kratom is not an opioid... https://erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_journal2.shtml https://erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_journal2.shtml >By 1940 three alkaloids in addition to mitragynine had definitely been characterized viz. mitraphylline from the bark of M. rubrostipulata (Michiels and Leroux 1925), rhynchophylline from the bark of M. stipulosa (Larrieu, 1930) and rotundifoline It does not contain any opiate alkaloids. It has zero morphine, thebane or codeine in it.
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  It binds to mu opioid receptors and the compounds are largely unstudied. So while maybe not technically an opioid, that doesn't magically mean it's good to go.
  - ddingus 8y ago
    What it is, and what it does are two different things. Saw your edit.
    - baq 8y ago
      If it quacks like a duck and quacking is what matters...
      - ddingus 8y ago
        Either we respect the chemistry, or we don't. Kratom does not contain alkaloids from the opium family. Which is it? Secondly, classifying the overall effect of Kratom as opiate like is, frankly ignorant. There is some minor league overlap, but not enough to justify the current moves to ban. Now, that degree of overlap may well prove a reason to monetize. And that looks a lot like the dynamics of THC too. The conversation should be honest, and most of it really isn't on that front. That, coupled with uninformed discussion on effects, potentials, makes for far more negative impact on the public than is warranted. This attempt to frame kratom into schedule 1 or even 2, based on very shallow, mostly anecdotal, and or dishonest representations of danger, is deplorable. Rabid too, where potential monetization is concerned. We can and should do much better. That could start with the chemistry, and history, frankly. ...or not, and that path is hardly respectable. A young child quacking, when quacking matters, would be the analogy to break yours down, in simple terms.
theshadowknows 8y ago
My wife has an as yet undiagnosed neurological condition with symptoms that include severe nerve pain, “electric shocks” in her head, and skin pain. She’s seen one of the best neurologist in the state, regularly sees another neurologist, and has bi-monthly appointments with a rheumatologist. For six years the best thing they could come up with was pumping her with 16 high dose caplets of Gabapentin, 8 doses of Tramadol, and a dose of Symbalta at night. I’ve watched her struggle with that for six years, helpless. And on top of that, none of the symptoms really went away. And if for some reason she ever had to go without Tramadol, you’d think she was detoxing from heroin. A few months ago she decided to stop taking all of it. She cold turkeyed the Gabapentin and stepped down off the Tramadol. Then she cold turkeyed the Symbalta. It was utter and complete hell. Now she occasionally takes a Tramadol on her worst nights. But she’s free of the overall effects. Except who knows what the long term effects of that many chemicals did to her. These were all “approved” treatments. Prescribed by some of the most highly educated and accomplished physicicians in the country. And they very nearly killed her, at best, and at worst made her want to kill herself. The American pharmaceutical industry and the American “health care” industry are the same industry. They own the medical schools. Which at this point are just cheap sales colleges. Doctors in the United States are licensed drug dealers with absolutely no motivation in treating causes, only in receiving kick backs from their PharmaCo handlers. And the fight against Kratom may be justified. But from my perspective whenever the FDA or any other government org in the US says something is inherently dangerous I can’t help but feel high levels of distrust. These are the same organizations that let Monsanto take over the food supply and make decisions based not on science, not even on what they think or can prove is good for the people, but on what increases their boss’s bottom line a fraction of a point.
- ryanworl 8y ago
  Has your wife ever taken an antibiotic similar to Ciprofloxacin? It is commonly prescribed for UTIs. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciprofloxacin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciprofloxacin [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroquinolone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroquinolone
- trdtaylor1 8y ago
  Sounds like trigeminal neuralgia or some other nerve impingement. effects from coffee / prescription anti-inflammatory are good indications towards that
karma_fountain 8y ago
In this article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3670991/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3670991/) there is a dude who was pretty heavily addicted to opiods and used Kratom to manage his withdrawal symptoms when trying to quit. Unfortunately he went a bit overboard and had a seizure. So he abused Kratom a lot and also opiods. After that he understandable quit the Kratom and had minor withdrawals. My takeaway here was that quiting Kratom is not like quiting opiods, and Kratom could be useful in allowing people to quit opiods more easily. I certainly think it's worth studying more, and to do that you don't want to ban it.
samirillian 8y ago
This is just my personal experience, maybe because I take it in lower doses but I really do experience it like tea only more so. There are such sharply diminishing returns on the effects that I doubt this story about high addictivity. My guess is that people do a lot because of the diminishing returns. Which you could argue is just another facet of addiction but I would disagree.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
spork12 8y ago
Kratom can ease opioid withdrawal it binds to the same receptors. Opioid addicts use it to "get by" when they can't their drug of choice. It is also used to "boost" the high by combining it with other opioids. It gives you the same euphoria as taking an opioid. In my opinion anything that gets you high is not a legit treatment for opioid dependence. What worked for me when I finally kicked opioids a few years ago was to taper off using suboxone quickly over about 2 weeks to get past opioid withdrawal, and then over about a year you have to train your brain to be high on life instead of substances. Easier said than done, the 27th try was a charm. Clean for 2.5 yrs now.
- joncrane 8y ago
  The thing with Kratom is that it's very dose-limiting. It tastes terrible, causes bad nausea, and makes you jittery. So let's say you have a dose of Kratom that you enjoy and you want more. You double it and you either puke it up before it all hits or it makes you so miserable you think twice before taking it again. The real danger is in the so-called extracts, which distill and purify the active ingredient(s). But regular powdered Kratom is, IMHO, less harmful than marijuana and should be legal. Interesting historical note about Kratom: it's traditionally used in SE Asia as a productivity drug. Farmers would take it to help them get through long days in the field. Much like how coca is used in the Andes.
  - spork12 8y ago
    Yes, the extracts are where you end up eventually. It's true, being high on opioids increases productivity massively while you are high. I remember being able to code 12-18 hours a day, be excited to mow a 2 acre lawn with a push mower, etc. The problem is when you run out of money and are in withdrawal productivity drops to zero, it's hard to even get up to take a pee.
- bojackstorkman 8y ago
  I have personally seen an entire friend group abuse buprenorphine recreationally. It doesn't produce the traditional opiate euphoria, but for people with little opioid tolerance it can be a very strong intoxicant. From my experience, kratom is noticeably less euphoric than most opiates and doesn't cause as bad of side effects such as nausea and constipation. Considering that difference and the big differences in price and availability (eg for people that lack access to healthcare), I believe there is a significant portion of people that could viably use kratom in lieu of buprenorphine, and ESPECIALLY in lieu of methadone. I genuinely believe that the debate about kratom is framed squarely by those who seek to control the profits in addiction treatment. For reference I am 7 years clean, and have "babysat" over a half dozen people through various stages of withdrawal from opiates, amphetamines and alcohol.
tzahola 8y ago
Still waiting for the iboga renaissance ;)
loeg 8y ago
Well, no argument it is an opioid (or probably a couple different opioids). That said, it has at least three significant advantages over black market heroin (IMO): 1. It is extremely inexpensive! Even grey market production, shipped halfway around the world, sold in small quantities across the internet, is just extremely cheap. Almost anything you would cut or adulterate it with is more expensive and thus adulteration is not as economically viable. 2. Dose (quantity). It's much less concentrated than heroin. 3. Dose (method). Taking drugs orally doesn't provide the same immediate gratification feedback loop that injecting (especially) or smoking does. (And as other commenters note, it tastes bad. It's like drinking dirt tea.)
nv-vn 8y ago
Why is it so hard to say that both sides can be right? Kratom definitely helps many people, much the same as cannabis, amphetamines, and other opioids. It has a clear medical purpose and maybe even a recreational purpose. We have not seen a huge epidemic of kratom-related deaths after all. Yet it is still an addictive drug at the end of the day, and anyone who argues that it isn't (or that weed isn't) is just hurting our ability to have rational conversations over these things. Alcoholism is a thing, yet it's clear that blanket bans of alcohol do far more harm than good. As much as people try to paint kratom as a magical cure for every disease under the sun, it's irrational to argue that it has no harmful effects. Getting to the point where we can accept this type of nuance is necessary if drug policy reform is a serious goal of ours. Simply trying to shut out the other side with phony pseudo-science juju shit about cannabis reversing the effects of smoke inhalation and being some magical gateway into another realm is just reinforcing their beliefs.
- mistermann 8y ago
  Of the two sides, to me the FDA is the one exhibiting the most phoniness, their blatantly dishonest stance on marijuana being a perfect example.

116 points by pmcpinto 8y ago

it's good.

Congress isn’t just considering banning it “just because”. There’s certainly a ton a lobbying money (ie bribes) by big pharma to make sure this un-patentable drug can’t cut into their own profits on painkillers. Kratom simply doesn’t have the lobbying power to make it a legal drug.

tcbawo 8y ago
I wonder how much of its effectiveness in moderating addiction comes from the fact that the active ingredients have not been isolated and available in concentrated form. Already, people seem to be studying different strains. Is it only a matter of time before it becomes abused? Having no first-hand experience with addiction, opioids, or kratom, I am skeptical since many of the article's subjects remain daily kratom users, often with increasing supply. Keeping it affordable with more socially mild symptoms allows these people to live functional lives. But it seems that the goal is not to attempt abstinence. Why?
- bonniemuffin 8y ago
  Abstinence for its own sake is frankly not all that useful to society. Harm reduction is a much more important goal. Millions of Americans are hooked on coffee and have withdrawals if they don't drink it, but nobody's up in arms about our caffeine dependence, precisely because it has very little in the way of social harms associated with it. If we can convert drug use with huge social harms (e.g. heroin, oxycontin) into drug use with negligible social harms (e.g. kratom), that would basically solve the opiate crisis. In my mind the goal isn't to stop people from using opiates-- it's to stop them from dying, committing crimes, and running their lives into the ground due to opiates.
  - tcbawo 8y ago
    A positive step, to be sure. It sounds like further study is warranted, especially once the active ingredients in kratom are isolated and concentrated. The coca leaf was used for millennia, but became socially harmful in its concentrated form.
    - 18pfsmt 8y ago
      Some might say the same thing about refined sugar without the naturally occurring fiber it always occurs alongside in nature.
  - lev99 8y ago
    > but nobody's up in arms about our caffeine dependence, precisely because it has very little in the way of social harms associated with it. Caffeine is associated with reducing the amount of sleep[0], which is associated with almost all illnesses [1]. [0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/sleep-newzzz/201312/new-details-caffeine-s-sleep-disrupting-effects https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/sleep-newzzz/20131... [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/558058812/sleep-scientist-warns-against-walking-through-life-in-an-underslept-state https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/16/5580588...
ryanmercer 8y ago
Well, and uh, the part where it's an opioid that can be addictive that is wholly unregulated and being sold by any number of vendors online that are sourcing the product from god only knows where and selling it as a safe supplement.
joncrane 8y ago
I have heard the same, and it's sickening.
snarf21 8y ago
You are absolutely right. If they do ban it, isn't it just going to go the way of pot and be grown in basements, etc.? I don't know if this is harder to grow than pot or not.

marsrover 8y ago

The real question is why does anyone care either way?

nugga 8y ago

Why is there still a prevalent knee-jerk attitude towards some drugs (or external catalysts that affect the body)? Are the lawmakers uninformed on the real effects the drugs have? Do they know but they can't take a 'pro sense' stance because of (irrational) fears that they'd get booted by their constituents? Are they influenced (lobbied) by powerful players to resist pouring more money towards research or being more open to moving towards legalization? Do they actually know but don't care?

nerdponx 8y ago
Are the lawmakers uninformed on the real effects the drugs have? Maybe to some extent. Do they know but they can't take a 'pro sense' stance because of (irrational) fears that they'd get booted by their constituents? Perhaps. If so, it would be the result of decades of successful propaganda. See below. Are they influenced (lobbied) by powerful players to resist pouring more money towards research or being more open to moving towards legalization? Yes.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
There's a neo-prohabitionist streak that most boomers (which most politicians are and also most voters) have. Consuming any mind altering substance that isn't culturally ingrained (i.e. alcohol or tobacco) is morally wrong, and therefore should be regulated and banned if possible. A lot of them seem to be under the impression that if recreational drugs were legal, everybody would spend their waking hours high and no work would ever get done. My boss recently claimed that they shouldn't legalise recreational cannabis because everyone would be high all the time, yet somehow people manage to avoid being drunk all the time, or at least most of us do.

DickScarington 8y ago

It bothers me that in all the hype about Kratom the fact it does produce dependence is obscured. I know a few folks who have had a terrible time getting off of Kratom. Only one of which is totally free of it. All of their cases were similar, going from a small brew a day the first week to doing 6-10g a day within weeks. People I know who still take it regularly remind me of addicts to other substances - claiming they can quit at any time but since they aren't having a problem they don't choose to quit. Yet they also constantly crave Kratom and freak out when they can't get it. Of course there are a lot of legal addictives - like a whole range of mood altering drugs like Xanax, Prozac, etc. - which are far worse long term. That still doesn't excuse the unrelenting hype that Kratom is safe and that it isn't addictive.

refurb 8y ago
It does produce dependence if taken often enough. However, compared to the harm caused by illicit opioids (or even prescription opioids) doesn’t this seem like a low priority? So someone is spending $100 or $200 per month on their kratom. They aren’t committing crimes to pay for it, they aren’t overdosing and dying in the street and they aren’t getting diseases by sharing needles. It doesn’t seem like a major health cocern. Kind of like tobacco without the second hand smoke or lung cancer. Sure it would be better if people didn’t do it, but that’s true of a lot of things.
- woah 8y ago
  You would see the same level of harm reduction if other opiates were legal. My guess is that what makes kratom less harmful is the legal status.
  - __blockcipher__ 8y ago
    False. Kratom (mitragyna speciosa) is unique in that it does not seem to trigger respiratory depression. So it’s not just the legal status. However it is true that drugs like heroin (when pure) are quite safe overall - aside from the respiratory depresssion overdose scenario.

marcelluspye 8y ago

I'm willing to accept that there's some complexity in the regulation of substances people use for medicinal purposes, whether they come out of the ground or a lab. The DEA is an abhorrent institution, though. And while it's clear the writers of the article swing one way about it, the DEA and FDA seem to be acting like they want any excuse to ban the stuff. When they start locking people up for selling Kratom, and then a year later big pharma comes out with "Kratolizine" at 50x the price, I won't be surprised.

scoggs 8y ago
Your post's content is the crux of the problem from my POV. The powers that be and the bodies that make decisions about the legality of substances and scheduling of them seem much more interested in general profit and preventing the average citizen from using any sort of alternate route or remedy to combat their addiction. If they focused even a slight percentage of their energy and efforts into actually helping these people or offering real alternatives in terms of addiction care / help I'd be much more willing to believe things they are doing and saying but as it stands everything just seems like a smoke screen or straw man to allow them to continue conducting business as usual.
- mistermann 8y ago
  I'm curious what the state of affairs is in Europe wrt Kratom, or do they tend to coincidentally come to the same policy conclusions as the FDA?
  - 18pfsmt 8y ago
    "In Europe, as of 2011, the plant was controlled in Denmark, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Sweden.[15] In the UK, since 2016, the sale, import, and export of kratom are prohibited under the Psychoactive Substances Act."

EGreg 8y ago

I constantly see ads for NALOXONE. Does it use Kratom?

atomical 8y ago
It has the opposite effect.
dsr_ 8y ago
No. Naloxone (Narcan) is an opioid receptor blocker that prevents other opioids from having an effect while not producing any pleasurable or pain-relieving effects itself. Interestingly, it's made from oxymorphone, one of the more powerful members of the opioid family.

GordonS 8y ago

It's not just another opioid - mitragynine doesn't recruit beta-arrestin, the pathway associated with tolerance build up and side effects like respiratory depression. I'm certainly not convinced it does cause dependence, especially not to the same degree as most opioids. As a sample size of 1, I was always able to stop taking kratom without suffering any kind of withdrawal, and there are plenty of other similar anecdotes on reddit (to be fair, there are plenty that do talk of cold-like symptoms when stopping it)

pnsr 8y ago
As a sample size of 1, and a person who has used a lot of different substances (alcohol, cigarettes, amphetamines, psychedelics, marijuana flowers and extracts), been addicted to quite a few of them, and kicked all of them, Kratom has been by far the hardest drug to stop. After reading online about the potential benefits and mildness of Kratom, I started taking it occasionally, and slowly had to ramp up usage frequency because I would start feeling cold and uneasy when not on it, I pretty soon I had to take it consistently to stay at my baseline level. I managed to taper off down to a manageable level (about half a coffee spoon every 5 hours), but going beyond that was impossible without feeling the withdrawal effect pretty much full force, I decided it was best to bite the bullet and stop cold turkey. Extremely cold feeling coming from inside on a very hot day, awful restlessness (which made it impossible to sleep more than 2 or 3 hours a night for the first week, before I had to give up and go on sick leave), the most intense feeling of being devoid of energy both physically and psychologically, and pretty much all the symptoms of a strong cold. The extreme sleepiness and impossibility to fall asleep because of the restlessness is one of the most frustrating combos I've ever experienced, but I'm sure that's all too familiar to opioids users. If you're trying to kick off an existing opioid addiction (or maybe have some sort of pain where the usual pain meds channel are not available?), this might make it more manageable I'm sure, but all the analogies to coffee or tea as "Just a thing you can take if you wanna calm down a bit" can be extremely dangerous to people that have essentially no need for it, and particularly people with an addictive behavior.
- 0110011 8y ago
  We all have our weaknesses I guess. For me, nothing was harder to quit than pot. I've regularly used opiates, kratom, and even tobacco and I can pick them up and put them down with ease and lack of noticable side effects (short of a few depressed days). Weed took weeks of dealing with lack of sleep, agression and obsessive thoughts before I broke free, and that was after many failed attempts. I have personally seen several friends kick regular pill habits with kratom and they got off it OK. We should discuss the downsides but from what I've seen the folks with kratom problems just took way too much(as addicts will do, I guess).

SirensOfTitan 8y ago

From the article, it seems like the government wants to ban the plant in fear of a new opioid crisis—all while opioid class drugs are relatively accessible. It’s amazing how large of a grip big pharmaceutical companies have on the US government.

ryanmercer 8y ago

It is an opioid, that many people get quite dependent on. Methadone is an opioid that helps people get off heroin, it also has people that get addicted to it. Just because something, when used a certain way, has positive benefit doesn't mean it should just be sold to anyone that wants some.

awakeasleep 8y ago
One twist to the equation is that Kratom isn't that pleasurable to people who aren't already addicted to opioids. I bought a pack after I had surgery- I never finished it and never expect to take it again. In a large way it feels gross and unpleasant, completely unlike codeine/vicodin/oxycodone. (I don't feel like I ever got addicted, despite taking it daily for a couple weeks, and haven't taken any opioids in the 8 months since the pain stopped interfering with my life)
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  That's true of many addictive things though. Problem is, the stuff is unregulated and coming from all sorts of sources most of which probably have zero quality control and then it's readily avialable to buy for anyone with access to the internet and a credit cad. Sure, people can also go on a DNM and with bitcoin they bought with a credit card order as much cocaine or heroin to their door as they want but most people see cocaine and heroin as bad and would never do that. However, when you have people on podcasts and YouTube going on and on about how great kratom is, how kratom makes their anxiety better, how kratom helped their friend's cousin's room mate's girlfriend get off heroin, then people are like "oh shit, I'm gonna order this panacea" and you have people that likely would never have tried some random opioid ordering the substance and consuming it. People will try something if it becomes part of a (their) culture or when someone they put trust in talks well of it (podcast host, YouTuber they follow). Look at when people discovered hacking productivity with Modafinil, you had domestic and foreign websites popping up like crazy selling real modafinil, fake modafinil, super harsh on the liver pro-drug versions of modafinil, to anyone that had a credit card all because a few tech journalists reported on how some in silicon valley were using it to hack their productivity. Look at 'k2' and similar synthetic cannabinoids that popped up several years ago. People were all 'hey man, it's legal and like weed!' and within months it was for sale in every headshop and even many independently owned gas stations. And whoops, once you had a bunch of people trying it turns out it wasn't exactly like weed and people were having basically bad trips and even seizures from mild to moderate comsumption and then state after state quickly started making it illegal. Then 'bath salts'. Go back 20ish years and kids were fucking around with freon and dying because it quickly entered certain cultures as a free way to get high at home. We live in a world where ideas are highly contagious. While kratom does seem to have benefit in some cases when used correctly and does have a traditional use, it just shouldn't be something that John Q Public can hop on the clearnet and order for self-medicating.

grawprog 8y ago

Kratom is not an opioid... https://erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_journal2.shtml https://erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_journal2.shtml >By 1940 three alkaloids in addition to mitragynine had definitely been characterized viz. mitraphylline from the bark of M. rubrostipulata (Michiels and Leroux 1925), rhynchophylline from the bark of M. stipulosa (Larrieu, 1930) and rotundifoline It does not contain any opiate alkaloids. It has zero morphine, thebane or codeine in it.

ryanmercer 8y ago
It binds to mu opioid receptors and the compounds are largely unstudied. So while maybe not technically an opioid, that doesn't magically mean it's good to go.
- ddingus 8y ago
  What it is, and what it does are two different things. Saw your edit.
  - baq 8y ago
    If it quacks like a duck and quacking is what matters...
    - ddingus 8y ago
      Either we respect the chemistry, or we don't. Kratom does not contain alkaloids from the opium family. Which is it? Secondly, classifying the overall effect of Kratom as opiate like is, frankly ignorant. There is some minor league overlap, but not enough to justify the current moves to ban. Now, that degree of overlap may well prove a reason to monetize. And that looks a lot like the dynamics of THC too. The conversation should be honest, and most of it really isn't on that front. That, coupled with uninformed discussion on effects, potentials, makes for far more negative impact on the public than is warranted. This attempt to frame kratom into schedule 1 or even 2, based on very shallow, mostly anecdotal, and or dishonest representations of danger, is deplorable. Rabid too, where potential monetization is concerned. We can and should do much better. That could start with the chemistry, and history, frankly. ...or not, and that path is hardly respectable. A young child quacking, when quacking matters, would be the analogy to break yours down, in simple terms.

theshadowknows 8y ago

My wife has an as yet undiagnosed neurological condition with symptoms that include severe nerve pain, “electric shocks” in her head, and skin pain. She’s seen one of the best neurologist in the state, regularly sees another neurologist, and has bi-monthly appointments with a rheumatologist. For six years the best thing they could come up with was pumping her with 16 high dose caplets of Gabapentin, 8 doses of Tramadol, and a dose of Symbalta at night. I’ve watched her struggle with that for six years, helpless. And on top of that, none of the symptoms really went away. And if for some reason she ever had to go without Tramadol, you’d think she was detoxing from heroin. A few months ago she decided to stop taking all of it. She cold turkeyed the Gabapentin and stepped down off the Tramadol. Then she cold turkeyed the Symbalta. It was utter and complete hell. Now she occasionally takes a Tramadol on her worst nights. But she’s free of the overall effects. Except who knows what the long term effects of that many chemicals did to her. These were all “approved” treatments. Prescribed by some of the most highly educated and accomplished physicicians in the country. And they very nearly killed her, at best, and at worst made her want to kill herself. The American pharmaceutical industry and the American “health care” industry are the same industry. They own the medical schools. Which at this point are just cheap sales colleges. Doctors in the United States are licensed drug dealers with absolutely no motivation in treating causes, only in receiving kick backs from their PharmaCo handlers. And the fight against Kratom may be justified. But from my perspective whenever the FDA or any other government org in the US says something is inherently dangerous I can’t help but feel high levels of distrust. These are the same organizations that let Monsanto take over the food supply and make decisions based not on science, not even on what they think or can prove is good for the people, but on what increases their boss’s bottom line a fraction of a point.

ryanworl 8y ago
Has your wife ever taken an antibiotic similar to Ciprofloxacin? It is commonly prescribed for UTIs. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciprofloxacin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciprofloxacin [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroquinolone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroquinolone
trdtaylor1 8y ago
Sounds like trigeminal neuralgia or some other nerve impingement. effects from coffee / prescription anti-inflammatory are good indications towards that

karma_fountain 8y ago

In this article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3670991/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3670991/) there is a dude who was pretty heavily addicted to opiods and used Kratom to manage his withdrawal symptoms when trying to quit. Unfortunately he went a bit overboard and had a seizure. So he abused Kratom a lot and also opiods. After that he understandable quit the Kratom and had minor withdrawals. My takeaway here was that quiting Kratom is not like quiting opiods, and Kratom could be useful in allowing people to quit opiods more easily. I certainly think it's worth studying more, and to do that you don't want to ban it.

samirillian 8y ago

This is just my personal experience, maybe because I take it in lower doses but I really do experience it like tea only more so. There are such sharply diminishing returns on the effects that I doubt this story about high addictivity. My guess is that people do a lot because of the diminishing returns. Which you could argue is just another facet of addiction but I would disagree.

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spork12 8y ago

Kratom can ease opioid withdrawal it binds to the same receptors. Opioid addicts use it to "get by" when they can't their drug of choice. It is also used to "boost" the high by combining it with other opioids. It gives you the same euphoria as taking an opioid. In my opinion anything that gets you high is not a legit treatment for opioid dependence. What worked for me when I finally kicked opioids a few years ago was to taper off using suboxone quickly over about 2 weeks to get past opioid withdrawal, and then over about a year you have to train your brain to be high on life instead of substances. Easier said than done, the 27th try was a charm. Clean for 2.5 yrs now.

joncrane 8y ago
The thing with Kratom is that it's very dose-limiting. It tastes terrible, causes bad nausea, and makes you jittery. So let's say you have a dose of Kratom that you enjoy and you want more. You double it and you either puke it up before it all hits or it makes you so miserable you think twice before taking it again. The real danger is in the so-called extracts, which distill and purify the active ingredient(s). But regular powdered Kratom is, IMHO, less harmful than marijuana and should be legal. Interesting historical note about Kratom: it's traditionally used in SE Asia as a productivity drug. Farmers would take it to help them get through long days in the field. Much like how coca is used in the Andes.
- spork12 8y ago
  Yes, the extracts are where you end up eventually. It's true, being high on opioids increases productivity massively while you are high. I remember being able to code 12-18 hours a day, be excited to mow a 2 acre lawn with a push mower, etc. The problem is when you run out of money and are in withdrawal productivity drops to zero, it's hard to even get up to take a pee.
bojackstorkman 8y ago
I have personally seen an entire friend group abuse buprenorphine recreationally. It doesn't produce the traditional opiate euphoria, but for people with little opioid tolerance it can be a very strong intoxicant. From my experience, kratom is noticeably less euphoric than most opiates and doesn't cause as bad of side effects such as nausea and constipation. Considering that difference and the big differences in price and availability (eg for people that lack access to healthcare), I believe there is a significant portion of people that could viably use kratom in lieu of buprenorphine, and ESPECIALLY in lieu of methadone. I genuinely believe that the debate about kratom is framed squarely by those who seek to control the profits in addiction treatment. For reference I am 7 years clean, and have "babysat" over a half dozen people through various stages of withdrawal from opiates, amphetamines and alcohol.

tzahola 8y ago

Still waiting for the iboga renaissance ;)

loeg 8y ago

Well, no argument it is an opioid (or probably a couple different opioids). That said, it has at least three significant advantages over black market heroin (IMO): 1. It is extremely inexpensive! Even grey market production, shipped halfway around the world, sold in small quantities across the internet, is just extremely cheap. Almost anything you would cut or adulterate it with is more expensive and thus adulteration is not as economically viable. 2. Dose (quantity). It's much less concentrated than heroin. 3. Dose (method). Taking drugs orally doesn't provide the same immediate gratification feedback loop that injecting (especially) or smoking does. (And as other commenters note, it tastes bad. It's like drinking dirt tea.)

nv-vn 8y ago

Why is it so hard to say that both sides can be right? Kratom definitely helps many people, much the same as cannabis, amphetamines, and other opioids. It has a clear medical purpose and maybe even a recreational purpose. We have not seen a huge epidemic of kratom-related deaths after all. Yet it is still an addictive drug at the end of the day, and anyone who argues that it isn't (or that weed isn't) is just hurting our ability to have rational conversations over these things. Alcoholism is a thing, yet it's clear that blanket bans of alcohol do far more harm than good. As much as people try to paint kratom as a magical cure for every disease under the sun, it's irrational to argue that it has no harmful effects. Getting to the point where we can accept this type of nuance is necessary if drug policy reform is a serious goal of ours. Simply trying to shut out the other side with phony pseudo-science juju shit about cannabis reversing the effects of smoke inhalation and being some magical gateway into another realm is just reinforcing their beliefs.

mistermann 8y ago
Of the two sides, to me the FDA is the one exhibiting the most phoniness, their blatantly dishonest stance on marijuana being a perfect example.