6 ms·

I don't think the public is quite ready for just how much developers get paid. I doubt many would believe it.

dfjliasjg 8y ago
We can't even afford fresh college graduates. But we can afford Oracle.
bigiain 8y ago
I'm not even sure all _developers_ are quite ready for how much they (can) get paid - if they choose the most lucrative jobs. https://www.recode.net/2018/4/30/17301264/how-much-twitter-google-amazon-highest-paying-salary-tech https://www.recode.net/2018/4/30/17301264/how-much-twitter-g... Facebook's _median_ salary is apparently over $240k...
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  And IBM's is around $50k. Everyone hears about these $200k salaries, but most developers aren't making that. The median for the USA is around $100k, it's still a high salary for a job that requires only an undergraduate degree and no certifications, but it's not obscenely high like $240k.
  - iends 8y ago
    Would be surprised if the average IBM developer salary is around 50k. My guess would be higher, proabably around 90k - 100k for US employees.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    And the $50k IBMer in upstate New York lives about as well as the $240k Facebook employee in Menlo Park.
    - na85 8y ago
      That's a sad statement about the cost of living near SF.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        You can't make this shit up: the median home price in Ithica is $242k [0]. In Menlo Park, it's $2.42m [1]. A nice, even 10x. [0] https://www.zillow.com/ithaca-ny/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/ithaca-ny/home-values/ [1] https://www.zillow.com/menlo-park-ca/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/menlo-park-ca/home-values/
        derekp7 8y ago
        Wow, that makes my 160K 1500 sq ft house in the upper midwest (with easy access to 6-figure jobs) seem absolutely cheap by comparison. Only problem is property taxes are high (4K - 8K in this area). Oh, and typical corrupt Illinois politics.
        mikhailfranco 8y ago
        Illinois is bankrupt, get out now. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-illinois-leaving-population-pension-broke-20180102-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-illino...
        closeparen 8y ago
        So is California.
    - sidlls 8y ago
      He doesn't save as much, though. The FBer could save the IBMer's gross income every year.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        What good does that do him? One typically saves for: - Income replacement in an emergency - Income replacement in retirement - A down payment on a home - A home improvement project - A child’s college expenses less need-based financial aid All of these are inflated by living in a high-cost high-wage situation such that the larger balance has you merely keeping up in terms of the capabilities your savings buys you. The extra savings only make a difference if you move somewhere cheap before you draw them down. That’s a great argument for doing a few years in SV in your twenties but less relevant for senior talent.
        jogjayr 8y ago
        Having a higher income and higher gross savings allows you to invest more in: 1. Rental properties 2. Securities - stocks, bonds, derivatives, REITs etc. 3. Investment opportunities not available to others. The $250k-earning employee (sorry, yeah I bumped it up $10k to make this argument) is an accredited investor. All of the above have compounding benefits over the years. Investing $25k today is better than investing $5k, even if both are 10% of gross income of our example employees. $25k savings allows you to put a down payment on a $125k rental property in a low-cost area every year. > All of these are inflated by living in a high-cost high-wage situation The "high-cost" only applies if you insist on living the exact same lifestyle as you would in a low-cost area: large house, boat, large vehicles etc. It's just common sense to limit your spending on overpriced things. In the Bay Area, housing is overpriced.
        closeparen 8y ago
        It’s just common sense to compare like with like. The appropriate comparison to a shared apartment with a long public transit commute in SF is the same lifestyle in another city. Which may not provide as much investment income, but is so incredibly cheap you could achieve FIRE or be an artist or whatever.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - jogjayr 8y ago
      This keeps being brought up but I'm sorry, no. The IBMer maybe has a larger house that they own rather than rent. In basically every other respect, the $240k-earning employee comes out ahead. The latter earns more, can save _way_ more, lives in an area with better weather, and can afford to retire far earlier.
      - moftz 8y ago
        Exactly, they can put much more into a 401k and then move somewhere cheap to retire and have a much higher standard of living than the $50k guy would.
  - SEJeff 8y ago
    It doesn't require an undergrad. I was in the US Army as a UAV pilot for 4 years, got out and got a job as a Unix Admin. I'm now a successful software engineer. Also, $240k is not obscenely high. Top end google engineers make more and that's about normal starting comp for a very talented engineer in certain segments of finance.
    - bigiain 8y ago
      In one sense it's clearly not obscenely high - it's the median salary after all - _half_ of Facebook's employees make more than that. But from the perspective of someone struggling to make minimum wage, I'll be it 100% is obscene...
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      It doesn't strictly require an undergrad, no, but it helps to have one. And $240k is very high for a non-management job, and compared to the median income and the minimum wage for the USA is obscenely high. Median household income is ~$60k, and median personal income is ~$30k. Minimum wage in the USA is around $15k. In my books, 8 times the median income, or 16 times the minimum wage, is obscenely high. That kind of income disparity is not good for society.
      - SEJeff 8y ago
        My point was that it is not high in the world of software development. There are ranges much higher than the GP's stated $240k. I work in an industry where that is the case (finance).
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    Not to mention the median for a developer in the Bay Area is around $125-130k [1] [2]. Those $200k+ salaries often quoted here on HN are top outlier employees at top outlier companies, not rank-and-file mid-level engineers at average no-name companies. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: https://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-III-Salary.html https://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-I...
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  When I graduated college around 1990 I recall that was what financial firms in NYC were offering for real time/hft programmers.
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  If that’s salary TC is significantly higher. That’s what a new grad can make there in their first year in TC.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  if they choose the most lucrative jobs. I don't think that's how it works. You can only choose to apply.

We can't even afford fresh college graduates. But we can afford Oracle.

I'm not even sure all _developers_ are quite ready for how much they (can) get paid - if they choose the most lucrative jobs. https://www.recode.net/2018/4/30/17301264/how-much-twitter-google-amazon-highest-paying-salary-tech https://www.recode.net/2018/4/30/17301264/how-much-twitter-g... Facebook's _median_ salary is apparently over $240k...

toomanybeersies 8y ago
And IBM's is around $50k. Everyone hears about these $200k salaries, but most developers aren't making that. The median for the USA is around $100k, it's still a high salary for a job that requires only an undergraduate degree and no certifications, but it's not obscenely high like $240k.
- iends 8y ago
  Would be surprised if the average IBM developer salary is around 50k. My guess would be higher, proabably around 90k - 100k for US employees.
- closeparen 8y ago
  And the $50k IBMer in upstate New York lives about as well as the $240k Facebook employee in Menlo Park.
  - na85 8y ago
    That's a sad statement about the cost of living near SF.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      You can't make this shit up: the median home price in Ithica is $242k [0]. In Menlo Park, it's $2.42m [1]. A nice, even 10x. [0] https://www.zillow.com/ithaca-ny/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/ithaca-ny/home-values/ [1] https://www.zillow.com/menlo-park-ca/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/menlo-park-ca/home-values/
      - derekp7 8y ago
        Wow, that makes my 160K 1500 sq ft house in the upper midwest (with easy access to 6-figure jobs) seem absolutely cheap by comparison. Only problem is property taxes are high (4K - 8K in this area). Oh, and typical corrupt Illinois politics.
        mikhailfranco 8y ago
        Illinois is bankrupt, get out now. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-illinois-leaving-population-pension-broke-20180102-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-illino...
        closeparen 8y ago
        So is California.
  - sidlls 8y ago
    He doesn't save as much, though. The FBer could save the IBMer's gross income every year.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      What good does that do him? One typically saves for: - Income replacement in an emergency - Income replacement in retirement - A down payment on a home - A home improvement project - A child’s college expenses less need-based financial aid All of these are inflated by living in a high-cost high-wage situation such that the larger balance has you merely keeping up in terms of the capabilities your savings buys you. The extra savings only make a difference if you move somewhere cheap before you draw them down. That’s a great argument for doing a few years in SV in your twenties but less relevant for senior talent.
      - jogjayr 8y ago
        Having a higher income and higher gross savings allows you to invest more in: 1. Rental properties 2. Securities - stocks, bonds, derivatives, REITs etc. 3. Investment opportunities not available to others. The $250k-earning employee (sorry, yeah I bumped it up $10k to make this argument) is an accredited investor. All of the above have compounding benefits over the years. Investing $25k today is better than investing $5k, even if both are 10% of gross income of our example employees. $25k savings allows you to put a down payment on a $125k rental property in a low-cost area every year. > All of these are inflated by living in a high-cost high-wage situation The "high-cost" only applies if you insist on living the exact same lifestyle as you would in a low-cost area: large house, boat, large vehicles etc. It's just common sense to limit your spending on overpriced things. In the Bay Area, housing is overpriced.
        closeparen 8y ago
        It’s just common sense to compare like with like. The appropriate comparison to a shared apartment with a long public transit commute in SF is the same lifestyle in another city. Which may not provide as much investment income, but is so incredibly cheap you could achieve FIRE or be an artist or whatever.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    This keeps being brought up but I'm sorry, no. The IBMer maybe has a larger house that they own rather than rent. In basically every other respect, the $240k-earning employee comes out ahead. The latter earns more, can save _way_ more, lives in an area with better weather, and can afford to retire far earlier.
    - moftz 8y ago
      Exactly, they can put much more into a 401k and then move somewhere cheap to retire and have a much higher standard of living than the $50k guy would.
- SEJeff 8y ago
  It doesn't require an undergrad. I was in the US Army as a UAV pilot for 4 years, got out and got a job as a Unix Admin. I'm now a successful software engineer. Also, $240k is not obscenely high. Top end google engineers make more and that's about normal starting comp for a very talented engineer in certain segments of finance.
  - bigiain 8y ago
    In one sense it's clearly not obscenely high - it's the median salary after all - _half_ of Facebook's employees make more than that. But from the perspective of someone struggling to make minimum wage, I'll be it 100% is obscene...
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    It doesn't strictly require an undergrad, no, but it helps to have one. And $240k is very high for a non-management job, and compared to the median income and the minimum wage for the USA is obscenely high. Median household income is ~$60k, and median personal income is ~$30k. Minimum wage in the USA is around $15k. In my books, 8 times the median income, or 16 times the minimum wage, is obscenely high. That kind of income disparity is not good for society.
    - SEJeff 8y ago
      My point was that it is not high in the world of software development. There are ranges much higher than the GP's stated $240k. I work in an industry where that is the case (finance).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ryandrake 8y ago
  Not to mention the median for a developer in the Bay Area is around $125-130k [1] [2]. Those $200k+ salaries often quoted here on HN are top outlier employees at top outlier companies, not rank-and-file mid-level engineers at average no-name companies. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: https://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-III-Salary.html https://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-I...
stevenwoo 8y ago
When I graduated college around 1990 I recall that was what financial firms in NYC were offering for real time/hft programmers.
akhilcacharya 8y ago
If that’s salary TC is significantly higher. That’s what a new grad can make there in their first year in TC.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
if they choose the most lucrative jobs. I don't think that's how it works. You can only choose to apply.