5 ms·

"there's no cultural barrier to overcome" There is indeed a cultural barrier in the United States when it comes to vegetarian diets. Many Americans avoid "fake

"there's no cultural barrier to overcome" There is indeed a cultural barrier in the United States when it comes to vegetarian diets. Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs.

RandallBrown 8y ago
Yeah, but you won't find any Americans that avoid eating things made of plants. You will definitely find Americans that avoid eating things made of bugs.
- evilolive 8y ago
  as a european living in America I would somewhat disagree I've had more than one colleague who modifies anything on a menu until it's mostly meat, carbs & cheese
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    Carbs in the colloquial sense are still plant based - disregarding the comparative traces of carbs in animal products.
- phil248 8y ago
  Many Americans avoid eating things made out of plants. For example, tofu or veggie burgers. Like I said, this is a cultural phenomenon, similar to but less severe than the cultural proclivity to avoid eating insects. Though many Americans don't seem to mind eating snails.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    I eat tofu quite often, but I don't eat fake meat. If I want meat, I buy meat. I don't like the idea of plant protein being tortured until it resembles a completely different product.
    - phil248 8y ago
      Funny use of words, avoiding figuratively "tortured" plant proteins and instead opting for literally tortured animals.
grzm 8y ago
> "Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs." Can you elaborate on this? Downthread you mention not eating tofu or veggie burgers is due to avoidance of plants. This seems a peculiar way to phrase it. While many Americans probably don't get enough fresh vegetables and fruits, many still do include various vegetables and fruits and grains in their diets. While I do agree that it's culture in the sense that diet does tend to be cultural, "avoidance of plants" or "avoidance of fake meat" due to cultural beliefs seems a particularly odd phrasing. Culinary customs might be better? (I'm trying anemically to think of some parallel characterization of another cultural group, but doing so seems unhelpful.)
- phil248 8y ago
  I'm surprised this is at all controversial. Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems. The foods those people eat instead of meat are part of this wrong belief system, and no 'normal' person who doesn't believe in that system would want to eat those foods. Tofu and veggie burgers being the two biggest offenders. In my experience, people outside of the big metro areas are not at all shy about sharing the above perspective. Source: I lived in the Midwest as a vegetarian.
  - grzm 8y ago
    > "Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems." These are really strong words. You're also now conflating people who aren't vegetarian with a general dislike of plant food. Someone can be an omnivore and include a lot of plants in their diet. I think most people also think that including plant-based foods in their diet is a good thing (and wish they did more of), even if it's not something they do in their everyday diet. I've heard of people disagree with strong moralistic positions for vegetarianism/veganism and think strident/militant vegetarians/vegans are "kooky" and are put off by them, but this is due to the stridency, militant, and evangelical nature of those expressing such positions rather than something inherent in vegetarianism/veganism. I can't recall every hearing someone express that vegetarianism is offensive. I've heard people express that vegetarian/vegan diets don't provide full nutrition, so in that sense they think it's wrong, but that's much different from thinking it's morally wrong or offensive. Sure, you'll get people who aren't tolerant of others viewpoints, but that's generally due to intolerance in general (and on many sides and issues), rather than something inherent in the particular position. And when someone is perceived to have a chip on their shoulder, there's always someone who just wants to push it off for no other reason than that it's there. You can use "many Americans" to mean many things: there's a lot of people in America, so even a small percentage sharing a particular belief is going to be a lot of people. If you have numbers to support your views, I'd be interested in hearing them. To my reading, you may be particularly sensitive on this issue and in at least some cases reading more into some behavior and statements than may be warranted. Have a black bean burger and some tempeh on me!
sequoia 8y ago
> Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs. Would you order a dish prepared with fake avocado and fake olive oil? If you are happy to eat the genuine product, why would you choose to eat an imitation, barring poverty or lack of availability?
- phil248 8y ago
  You're abusing the word "fake". Is coconut oil fake olive oil? Just two different substances serving similar purposes, much in the way mushrooms are sometimes used in dishes the way meat might be used. You could call that "fake meat"... or just call it mushrooms.
  - sequoia 8y ago
    You used the term "fake meat" in the comment I replied to, I repeated it. I'm a meat eater and of course that doesn't mean I won't order or eat mushrooms. It means I'm unlikely to purchase Morning Star Farms soy-based "Bacon Strips", or other meat imitation products. This is not because of a "cultural belief" it's because I don't have a need to avoid genuine bacon, so why would I buy a soy substitute/imitation? So would you order a dish with imitation avocado made of soy protein and canola oil?
vidarh 8y ago
That's partly because the experience mostly is that they don't taste very satisfying. If I ever tasted vegetarian food that satisfied me the same way bacon or beef does, I'd happily eat more of it. Not ever gotten anywhere close, though. So I don't think it's so much cultural beliefs as it is experience, coupled with exactly the idea that it is "fake", and coupled with a stereotype of smug vegetarian eating food that people don't expect to taste very nice for ideological reasons. It's associated with choosing away nice tasting food, basically. Reducing the meat content and adding more of various substitutes would probably work a lot better to change habits than trying to get people to pick vegetarian food, and open the door for cutting more later.

"there's no cultural barrier to overcome" There is indeed a cultural barrier in the United States when it comes to vegetarian diets. Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs.

RandallBrown 8y ago

Yeah, but you won't find any Americans that avoid eating things made of plants. You will definitely find Americans that avoid eating things made of bugs.

evilolive 8y ago
as a european living in America I would somewhat disagree I've had more than one colleague who modifies anything on a menu until it's mostly meat, carbs & cheese
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Carbs in the colloquial sense are still plant based - disregarding the comparative traces of carbs in animal products.
phil248 8y ago
Many Americans avoid eating things made out of plants. For example, tofu or veggie burgers. Like I said, this is a cultural phenomenon, similar to but less severe than the cultural proclivity to avoid eating insects. Though many Americans don't seem to mind eating snails.
- adrianN 8y ago
  I eat tofu quite often, but I don't eat fake meat. If I want meat, I buy meat. I don't like the idea of plant protein being tortured until it resembles a completely different product.
  - phil248 8y ago
    Funny use of words, avoiding figuratively "tortured" plant proteins and instead opting for literally tortured animals.

grzm 8y ago

> "Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs." Can you elaborate on this? Downthread you mention not eating tofu or veggie burgers is due to avoidance of plants. This seems a peculiar way to phrase it. While many Americans probably don't get enough fresh vegetables and fruits, many still do include various vegetables and fruits and grains in their diets. While I do agree that it's culture in the sense that diet does tend to be cultural, "avoidance of plants" or "avoidance of fake meat" due to cultural beliefs seems a particularly odd phrasing. Culinary customs might be better? (I'm trying anemically to think of some parallel characterization of another cultural group, but doing so seems unhelpful.)

phil248 8y ago
I'm surprised this is at all controversial. Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems. The foods those people eat instead of meat are part of this wrong belief system, and no 'normal' person who doesn't believe in that system would want to eat those foods. Tofu and veggie burgers being the two biggest offenders. In my experience, people outside of the big metro areas are not at all shy about sharing the above perspective. Source: I lived in the Midwest as a vegetarian.
- grzm 8y ago
  > "Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems." These are really strong words. You're also now conflating people who aren't vegetarian with a general dislike of plant food. Someone can be an omnivore and include a lot of plants in their diet. I think most people also think that including plant-based foods in their diet is a good thing (and wish they did more of), even if it's not something they do in their everyday diet. I've heard of people disagree with strong moralistic positions for vegetarianism/veganism and think strident/militant vegetarians/vegans are "kooky" and are put off by them, but this is due to the stridency, militant, and evangelical nature of those expressing such positions rather than something inherent in vegetarianism/veganism. I can't recall every hearing someone express that vegetarianism is offensive. I've heard people express that vegetarian/vegan diets don't provide full nutrition, so in that sense they think it's wrong, but that's much different from thinking it's morally wrong or offensive. Sure, you'll get people who aren't tolerant of others viewpoints, but that's generally due to intolerance in general (and on many sides and issues), rather than something inherent in the particular position. And when someone is perceived to have a chip on their shoulder, there's always someone who just wants to push it off for no other reason than that it's there. You can use "many Americans" to mean many things: there's a lot of people in America, so even a small percentage sharing a particular belief is going to be a lot of people. If you have numbers to support your views, I'd be interested in hearing them. To my reading, you may be particularly sensitive on this issue and in at least some cases reading more into some behavior and statements than may be warranted. Have a black bean burger and some tempeh on me!

sequoia 8y ago

> Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs. Would you order a dish prepared with fake avocado and fake olive oil? If you are happy to eat the genuine product, why would you choose to eat an imitation, barring poverty or lack of availability?

phil248 8y ago
You're abusing the word "fake". Is coconut oil fake olive oil? Just two different substances serving similar purposes, much in the way mushrooms are sometimes used in dishes the way meat might be used. You could call that "fake meat"... or just call it mushrooms.
- sequoia 8y ago
  You used the term "fake meat" in the comment I replied to, I repeated it. I'm a meat eater and of course that doesn't mean I won't order or eat mushrooms. It means I'm unlikely to purchase Morning Star Farms soy-based "Bacon Strips", or other meat imitation products. This is not because of a "cultural belief" it's because I don't have a need to avoid genuine bacon, so why would I buy a soy substitute/imitation? So would you order a dish with imitation avocado made of soy protein and canola oil?

vidarh 8y ago

That's partly because the experience mostly is that they don't taste very satisfying. If I ever tasted vegetarian food that satisfied me the same way bacon or beef does, I'd happily eat more of it. Not ever gotten anywhere close, though. So I don't think it's so much cultural beliefs as it is experience, coupled with exactly the idea that it is "fake", and coupled with a stereotype of smug vegetarian eating food that people don't expect to taste very nice for ideological reasons. It's associated with choosing away nice tasting food, basically. Reducing the meat content and adding more of various substitutes would probably work a lot better to change habits than trying to get people to pick vegetarian food, and open the door for cutting more later.