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All due respect, have you used any of the Autopilot clones? There are endless debates about what's better on paper, but everybody I know who's actually used the

All due respect, have you used any of the Autopilot clones? There are endless debates about what's better on paper, but everybody I know who's actually used them says Autopilot is much more mature. Comma.ai seems to be right on their tail, but it's an aftermarket system requiring a fair bit of DIY (so it's not very accessible yet for most end users). Tesla was first to market with auto steering, and seems to have the most mature offering, so framing them as the market leader seems pretty accurate to me.

Zhenya 8y ago
But the other companies aren't imitators even if what you're saying holds true. They have products that did, before or at the same time, similar functions. Did they actually copy Tesla once the functionality was released on the Model S? The answer is 'no'.
- freerobby 8y ago
  > They have products that did, before or at the same time, similar functions. I don't think that's accurate. Autosteer is the fundamental innovation of Autopilot, and no other manufacturer released a system that "did, before or at the same time, similar functions" as Autosteer. Other manufacturers have since released systems that technically check the box of turning the wheel. But the value of a system isn't how it's described on paper; it's how useful it is on real roads. I haven't seen anyone release a system that's competitive with Tesla's except for Comma.ai (which is a very special case as they are not an OEM and only sell raw hardware). "Imitators" wouldn't be my word of choice (it feels needlessly pejorative), but until someone actually innovates beyond what Tesla has done, I think it's fair to frame the conversation as the gold standard vs everything else.
  - rohit2412 8y ago
    Taking lane keeping assists and calling them autosteer is innovation?
mdorazio 8y ago
As someone who has used Autopilot and many of its "clones" as well as worked with several OEMs on these features, Tesla's offering is not more mature, it's more irresponsible. Autopilot is a combination of ADAS features that many other OEMs have had for a while and deliberately chosen not to tie together due to safety concerns. These concerns have been validated multiple times now by Autopilot errors. The "clones" are deliberately less good because the manufacturers offering them care more about safety and reliability than about marketing beta products.
- freerobby 8y ago
  How mature a system is and whether it's morally responsible (or imperative) to release it are different questions. > The "clones" are deliberately less good because the manufacturers offering them care more about safety and reliability than about marketing beta products. When I say "maturity," I'm not talking about holding back features. I'm saying that Tesla's system works better in situations where other manufacturers offer similar features. For example, how many other manufacturer's TACC will slow down (below the set limit) when a turn is coming up and then accelerate through the turn as a human is taught to do? How many autosteering systems will sense an adjacent car drifting from its lane and "creep" away from it to avoid a possible collision? These are the sorts of mature behaviors that put Autopilot ahead of the pack and make it much more real-world useful than its competitors. On irresponsibility, I passionately disagree. But rather than rehash a bunch of old discussions I'll just link to prior comments explaining why I feel the way I do, and we can debate it further in those comments if you're interested. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17302164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17302164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17233845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17233845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16773903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16773903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17236608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17236608
  - Animats 8y ago
    Tesla seems to have focused on getting lane following to behave well. That gives the user the impression that the system is competent. Obstacle detection, though, is not reliable, as has become painfully clear from crash reports.

Zhenya 8y ago

But the other companies aren't imitators even if what you're saying holds true. They have products that did, before or at the same time, similar functions. Did they actually copy Tesla once the functionality was released on the Model S? The answer is 'no'.

freerobby 8y ago
> They have products that did, before or at the same time, similar functions. I don't think that's accurate. Autosteer is the fundamental innovation of Autopilot, and no other manufacturer released a system that "did, before or at the same time, similar functions" as Autosteer. Other manufacturers have since released systems that technically check the box of turning the wheel. But the value of a system isn't how it's described on paper; it's how useful it is on real roads. I haven't seen anyone release a system that's competitive with Tesla's except for Comma.ai (which is a very special case as they are not an OEM and only sell raw hardware). "Imitators" wouldn't be my word of choice (it feels needlessly pejorative), but until someone actually innovates beyond what Tesla has done, I think it's fair to frame the conversation as the gold standard vs everything else.
- rohit2412 8y ago
  Taking lane keeping assists and calling them autosteer is innovation?

mdorazio 8y ago

As someone who has used Autopilot and many of its "clones" as well as worked with several OEMs on these features, Tesla's offering is not more mature, it's more irresponsible. Autopilot is a combination of ADAS features that many other OEMs have had for a while and deliberately chosen not to tie together due to safety concerns. These concerns have been validated multiple times now by Autopilot errors. The "clones" are deliberately less good because the manufacturers offering them care more about safety and reliability than about marketing beta products.

freerobby 8y ago
How mature a system is and whether it's morally responsible (or imperative) to release it are different questions. > The "clones" are deliberately less good because the manufacturers offering them care more about safety and reliability than about marketing beta products. When I say "maturity," I'm not talking about holding back features. I'm saying that Tesla's system works better in situations where other manufacturers offer similar features. For example, how many other manufacturer's TACC will slow down (below the set limit) when a turn is coming up and then accelerate through the turn as a human is taught to do? How many autosteering systems will sense an adjacent car drifting from its lane and "creep" away from it to avoid a possible collision? These are the sorts of mature behaviors that put Autopilot ahead of the pack and make it much more real-world useful than its competitors. On irresponsibility, I passionately disagree. But rather than rehash a bunch of old discussions I'll just link to prior comments explaining why I feel the way I do, and we can debate it further in those comments if you're interested. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17302164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17302164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17233845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17233845 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16773903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16773903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17236608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17236608
- Animats 8y ago
  Tesla seems to have focused on getting lane following to behave well. That gives the user the impression that the system is competent. Obstacle detection, though, is not reliable, as has become painfully clear from crash reports.