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I try to tell everyone I know--family, friends, etc.--to never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV for this reason. Use a set-top box. Use a Roku

I try to tell everyone I know--family, friends, etc.--to never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV for this reason. Use a set-top box. Use a Roku, a Chromecast, a Fire Stick, your old game console--literally anything that you can connect to the TV to watch Netflix on will be better for your privacy than the TV itself. I haven't updated my Samsung 40" TV in about 7 years for this reason. It's damn near impossible to just find a high quality "dumb" TV.

alyandon 8y ago
I've actually gone to the extent of repairing my Samsung with used parts acquired on ebay to avoid upgrading to a "smart" TV.
bootlooped 8y ago
I'm pretty sure you can make a smart tv relatively dumb again by just not connecting it to your network though.
- bhauer 8y ago
  I worry about the near future where cell connectivity (ala Kindle Whispernet) is cheap enough for these companies to not even bother using your network to exfiltrate data.
  - bootlooped 8y ago
    Yes, that is a possibility, but is the percentage of people who don't connect their smart TV going to be high enough to warrant that? I imagine the vast majority of people let their TVs connect, because they want to use Netflix and the other streaming services.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rixrax 8y ago
  Not so fast. There is IP over HDMI[1] or something so at least some smart-TVs might be able to use internet connection of PS4 or AV receiver or some other gadget in ARC/HDMI chain that is connected to internet. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-to-tv/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-...
- grawlinson 8y ago
  What most techies tend to do is put devices like that (Smart TV, IP cameras, etc) into their own VLAN with zero ability to "dial home". Frankly, the Internet of Shit scares me.
virtuabhi 8y ago
Sorry, but you are giving wrong advice. For example, Roku snoops on everything you watch on TV. Here is a screenshot from Roku's policy https://imgur.com/GGyc2uT https://imgur.com/GGyc2uT
- cptskippy 8y ago
  That's true however you have more control over an external STB than you do your TV with all of it's integrated features. If your TV has a microphone then in order to use it you must accept that they may record everything you say. You can always purchase a different brand/model however you might also be sacrificing features (e.g. All LG OLED TVs have mics in the remotes). Some STBs include microphones with their remotes but many do not, you have a choice. Most vendors do not regularly update their smart TV firmware or require the user to update it manually via a USB stick. On the other hand, vendors of STBs regularly update the firmware on their devices. From a security perspective I'd rather connect a STB to the internet than a smart TV.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
  I don't see how a Roku stick/set-top box can gather that information. It seems like antenna info etc. would only be accessible if you're using the version of Roku that's built into the TV itself.
maxsilver 8y ago
> never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV for this reason. Use a set-top box. That's basically the same exact thing. A SmartTV is just a TV with a set-top box built in. Nearly all Set-top boxes (like a Roku, Chromecast, Fire Stick, your old game console) report back your viewing habits and advertising/privacy data too, in basically the same way that any average SmartTV does. These two devices are so identical that many manufacturers just directly use a more user-friendly STB as their SmartTV. Here's a list of Roku-based SmartTV's https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv and another with Fire Stick built in https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv , and another with Chromecast https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/tv/ https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/tv/ as some examples.
- VLM 8y ago
  Single point of privacy failure, two ways. With a roku, roku is selling or having stolen your privacy. With a smart TV running roku app, both samsung and roku are selling or having stolen your privacy. The opposite direction of single point of privacy failure is watching TV must flow thru the TV. Theoretically I could watch amazon prime by plugging something that doesn't spy into a HDMI, and the TV can report very little spy data back. The argument is most CC theft doesn't involve stealing photocopies of CCs, so why go to any effort to avoid getting your physical CC photocopied? However, the real question is, what do I personally gain by making photocopies of my credit card and leaving them laying around? Nothing? Well, why bother? There are secondary effects because the primary purpose of a roku is being a roku they tend to do a better job at it, including better security/privacy/whatever, whereas the primary purpose of a TV is to display HDMI signals and there's a parasitic infection of privacy violation built into the smart TVs that no consumers want, as a secondary task of being a fake roku it'll never be a very good roku. Very much like asking why hardware stores exist in a post-swiss-army-knife world. My pocket knife has a terrible little pair of scissors why would any market exist for dedicated "real" scissors? The smart TV, at this era, distributes "smartness" at the quality level of the worst 80s era infomercial products, because for most people, its just a TV so expending more effort on the app beyond "well, it boots most of the time" is lost profit.
scarface74 8y ago
Use a Roku, a Chromecast, a Fire Stick So use a device from one of the three companies that all make money from advertising based on gathering user's data....
PhantomGremlin 8y ago
never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV Good thing you have a Samsung. If you had a Sony, you wouldn't even be able to use the Antenna input. In past years Sony pushed over-the-air updates to their TVs. I think they piggybacked local PBS stations for this. I don't know if Sony still does this. I didn't search too hard, but here's an note from 2015 acknowledging what happens: https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00008947 https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00008947 key text is: The update is received directly from an over-the-air broadcast.
- crtasm 8y ago
  That's a one way communication, there's no way for the TV to send information back to Sony over it.
  - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
    That's a one way communication Good point. But the TVs (like mine) are 120 Hz refresh. So they need algorithms to interpolate/smooth the video inputs that are 24 Hz, 60 Hz interlaced, 60 Hz. Sounds like a nice feature. But people complained that the new algorithms pushed to the TV without people's knowledge or consent were inferior to the old algorithms. I personally wouldn't know, I kept my TV far away from an antenna input. Sony can't "spy" on you with this method, but they can "break" your TV while you're asleep.
    - verall 8y ago
      I can imagine them introducing a bug, but most motion of the interp is done in hardware. Otherwise it takes a seriously hefty gpu to do 60hz->120hz interp without dropping frames. Especially at 4K.

alyandon 8y ago

I've actually gone to the extent of repairing my Samsung with used parts acquired on ebay to avoid upgrading to a "smart" TV.

bootlooped 8y ago

I'm pretty sure you can make a smart tv relatively dumb again by just not connecting it to your network though.

bhauer 8y ago
I worry about the near future where cell connectivity (ala Kindle Whispernet) is cheap enough for these companies to not even bother using your network to exfiltrate data.
- bootlooped 8y ago
  Yes, that is a possibility, but is the percentage of people who don't connect their smart TV going to be high enough to warrant that? I imagine the vast majority of people let their TVs connect, because they want to use Netflix and the other streaming services.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rixrax 8y ago
Not so fast. There is IP over HDMI[1] or something so at least some smart-TVs might be able to use internet connection of PS4 or AV receiver or some other gadget in ARC/HDMI chain that is connected to internet. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-to-tv/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-...
grawlinson 8y ago
What most techies tend to do is put devices like that (Smart TV, IP cameras, etc) into their own VLAN with zero ability to "dial home". Frankly, the Internet of Shit scares me.

virtuabhi 8y ago

Sorry, but you are giving wrong advice. For example, Roku snoops on everything you watch on TV. Here is a screenshot from Roku's policy https://imgur.com/GGyc2uT https://imgur.com/GGyc2uT

cptskippy 8y ago
That's true however you have more control over an external STB than you do your TV with all of it's integrated features. If your TV has a microphone then in order to use it you must accept that they may record everything you say. You can always purchase a different brand/model however you might also be sacrificing features (e.g. All LG OLED TVs have mics in the remotes). Some STBs include microphones with their remotes but many do not, you have a choice. Most vendors do not regularly update their smart TV firmware or require the user to update it manually via a USB stick. On the other hand, vendors of STBs regularly update the firmware on their devices. From a security perspective I'd rather connect a STB to the internet than a smart TV.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
I don't see how a Roku stick/set-top box can gather that information. It seems like antenna info etc. would only be accessible if you're using the version of Roku that's built into the TV itself.

maxsilver 8y ago

> never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV for this reason. Use a set-top box. That's basically the same exact thing. A SmartTV is just a TV with a set-top box built in. Nearly all Set-top boxes (like a Roku, Chromecast, Fire Stick, your old game console) report back your viewing habits and advertising/privacy data too, in basically the same way that any average SmartTV does. These two devices are so identical that many manufacturers just directly use a more user-friendly STB as their SmartTV. Here's a list of Roku-based SmartTV's https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv and another with Fire Stick built in https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv , and another with Chromecast https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/tv/ https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/tv/ as some examples.

VLM 8y ago
Single point of privacy failure, two ways. With a roku, roku is selling or having stolen your privacy. With a smart TV running roku app, both samsung and roku are selling or having stolen your privacy. The opposite direction of single point of privacy failure is watching TV must flow thru the TV. Theoretically I could watch amazon prime by plugging something that doesn't spy into a HDMI, and the TV can report very little spy data back. The argument is most CC theft doesn't involve stealing photocopies of CCs, so why go to any effort to avoid getting your physical CC photocopied? However, the real question is, what do I personally gain by making photocopies of my credit card and leaving them laying around? Nothing? Well, why bother? There are secondary effects because the primary purpose of a roku is being a roku they tend to do a better job at it, including better security/privacy/whatever, whereas the primary purpose of a TV is to display HDMI signals and there's a parasitic infection of privacy violation built into the smart TVs that no consumers want, as a secondary task of being a fake roku it'll never be a very good roku. Very much like asking why hardware stores exist in a post-swiss-army-knife world. My pocket knife has a terrible little pair of scissors why would any market exist for dedicated "real" scissors? The smart TV, at this era, distributes "smartness" at the quality level of the worst 80s era infomercial products, because for most people, its just a TV so expending more effort on the app beyond "well, it boots most of the time" is lost profit.

scarface74 8y ago

Use a Roku, a Chromecast, a Fire Stick So use a device from one of the three companies that all make money from advertising based on gathering user's data....

PhantomGremlin 8y ago

never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV Good thing you have a Samsung. If you had a Sony, you wouldn't even be able to use the Antenna input. In past years Sony pushed over-the-air updates to their TVs. I think they piggybacked local PBS stations for this. I don't know if Sony still does this. I didn't search too hard, but here's an note from 2015 acknowledging what happens: https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00008947 https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00008947 key text is: The update is received directly from an over-the-air broadcast.

crtasm 8y ago
That's a one way communication, there's no way for the TV to send information back to Sony over it.
- PhantomGremlin 8y ago
  That's a one way communication Good point. But the TVs (like mine) are 120 Hz refresh. So they need algorithms to interpolate/smooth the video inputs that are 24 Hz, 60 Hz interlaced, 60 Hz. Sounds like a nice feature. But people complained that the new algorithms pushed to the TV without people's knowledge or consent were inferior to the old algorithms. I personally wouldn't know, I kept my TV far away from an antenna input. Sony can't "spy" on you with this method, but they can "break" your TV while you're asleep.
  - verall 8y ago
    I can imagine them introducing a bug, but most motion of the interp is done in hardware. Otherwise it takes a seriously hefty gpu to do 60hz->120hz interp without dropping frames. Especially at 4K.