4 ms·

It's pretty sad that F# is sitting on the sidelines wondering what it did wrong to not get these accolades. I guess, "Being unable to enter a mobile ecosystem t

It's pretty sad that F# is sitting on the sidelines wondering what it did wrong to not get these accolades. I guess, "Being unable to enter a mobile ecosystem that's being held on a very old language runtime," is perhaps not the most desirable outcome for Android but dang if it hasn't worked out well for Kotlin's press. People are going TO Kotlin as opposed to the usually Ocaml/F#/Haskell/Idris/Agda world of the community trying to bring people in.

olavk 8y ago
Kotlin is competing against Java, while F# is competing against C#. F# is a great language, but so is C#. MS has done a really great job evolving C# away from a Java clone. C# keeps adding features inspired by functional languages, narrowing the gap to F#. Of course this makes it easier to switch, but on the other hand it also makes it less interesting.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  There's an argument to be made that F#'s place in the .NET ecosystem is to be a feature sandbox for C#. When F# first dropped, I was instantly in love. It was just so much nicer than C#, which was already nice. But, in the intervening years, C# has been adding new features at such a steady clip that it's hard for me to have such strong feelings anymore. Stylistically I like to have algebraic types and pattern matching, but from a practical perspective I think the two languages probably offer about the same level of productivity.
systems 8y ago
from where do you get that F# is sitting on the sidelines? i see more books and open source projects for F# than kotlin, which for a while made me skeptical about the truth of kotlin popularity
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I talk to a lot of Android folks. Most have already made the switch, and consider the growth of the language "explosive". That Google is opting in there only makes it better. F# has been around a long time and while it's experiencing modest growth and I think it has a positive track, I've certainly never seen it hyped and on the tip of every tongue the way Kotlin now is within the Android space.
  - systems 8y ago
    well, sure, if what you mainly work on is android, then it make sense that kotlin is getting hyped that being said, for an outsider (i mainly do BI and DB stuff), it seem like xamarin (C# and F#), flutter (Dart), react native (reasonml) .. might seem like the options to investigate first nowadays i think outside of android development, kotlin .. is not hyped at all
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      Sure, but Android is one of the top 3 most deployed application environments in the world. It's a pretty big and important market.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    I think it is completely unrealistic to expect F# to gain traction in Android. Google would never support it, and I don't think the platform is open enough for others to make it happen.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- edem 8y ago
  Maybe but F# has been around for much longer. It failed already to become mainstream.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Try to write a UWP or WPF application in F#, use EF designers with F#, follow up on Visual Studio changes related to F#. Heck even PowerShell now has a WinForms designer.
  - systems 8y ago
    I think, this might be because F# is community driven, and there is little interest in pushing API that is not portable to Linux F# was always linux friendly, long before .net core
withoutclass 8y ago
Why are you throwing out all kinds of FP languages when Kotlin is not one?
- edem 8y ago
  Try Arrow.
  - withoutclass 8y ago
    I already use arrow :)
- KirinDave 8y ago
  Kotlin's "not FP" in the way Scala is "not FP" and Swift is "not FP." It's pretty FP, in my experience. Just not strictly. :)
  - withoutclass 8y ago
    Notice how none of the langs you point out are not mentioned though. Comparing an FP-light to classical FP languages is not equivalent.
slowmovintarget 8y ago
I'll see your F# and raise you one Clojure.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I was around when the Clojure community seemed to make a conscious decision to not chase Android, so it's precisely their decision to miss that train. But I think Clojure isn't in a terrible spot right now. It gets a modest amount of use. More than I think many people imagined it possibly could have.
  - slowmovintarget 8y ago
    I sincerely hope Datomic Ions[1] take off, they are an amazing way to run Clojure code. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbthtdBw93w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbthtdBw93w
  - yogthos 8y ago
    Clojure approach to mobile development is to piggy back on React Native. Using [re-natal](https://github.com/drapanjanas/re-natal https://github.com/drapanjanas/re-natal) is pretty smooth nowadays, and you get some really nice benefits such as hot code loading, and being able to use re-frame for the UI. React Native works well enough for a lot of apps out there, and makes it relatively easy to write cross-platform apps. So, it's a pretty good platform to build on in my opinion.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      I dunno. I've yet to meet a shop that isn't tactically retreating from it within a year of shipping.
      - yogthos 8y ago
        I've seen about as many companies talking about being happy with it as those retreating from it. Personally, I haven't seen any issues with it that I would consider to be show stoppers.
jbattle 8y ago
Coming from Java - learning Kotlin is borderline trivial. I think having the huge audience of Java (+Android) (+IntelliJ) developers to draw from was a huge advantage for Kotlin.
phillipcarter 8y ago
> People are going TO Kotlin as opposed to the usually Ocaml/F#/Haskell/Idris/Agda world of the community trying to bring people in. The familiarity of C-style syntax and object orientation immediately places Kotlin above ML-style programming languages from the standpoint of adoption. It's a bit unfortunate that this is the case, but selling Android developers on a better C-style OO language than Java is a lot easier than selling them on something different.
jayd16 8y ago
Kotlin has its merits but the only real reason it is where it is is because its JetBrains' language. Kotlin has been treated as a first class citizen in the official Android IDE and one of the major Java IDEs in a way that no other language but Java itself is.
pjmlp 8y ago
F# isn't owned by the .NET team, which then focus on VB.NET and C#, and anything that improves F# just happens to be a "nice to have". They haven't yet bothered to make .NET Native understand the MSIL bytecodes required by F#, for example.

olavk 8y ago

Kotlin is competing against Java, while F# is competing against C#. F# is a great language, but so is C#. MS has done a really great job evolving C# away from a Java clone. C# keeps adding features inspired by functional languages, narrowing the gap to F#. Of course this makes it easier to switch, but on the other hand it also makes it less interesting.

bunderbunder 8y ago
There's an argument to be made that F#'s place in the .NET ecosystem is to be a feature sandbox for C#. When F# first dropped, I was instantly in love. It was just so much nicer than C#, which was already nice. But, in the intervening years, C# has been adding new features at such a steady clip that it's hard for me to have such strong feelings anymore. Stylistically I like to have algebraic types and pattern matching, but from a practical perspective I think the two languages probably offer about the same level of productivity.

systems 8y ago

from where do you get that F# is sitting on the sidelines? i see more books and open source projects for F# than kotlin, which for a while made me skeptical about the truth of kotlin popularity

KirinDave 8y ago
I talk to a lot of Android folks. Most have already made the switch, and consider the growth of the language "explosive". That Google is opting in there only makes it better. F# has been around a long time and while it's experiencing modest growth and I think it has a positive track, I've certainly never seen it hyped and on the tip of every tongue the way Kotlin now is within the Android space.
- systems 8y ago
  well, sure, if what you mainly work on is android, then it make sense that kotlin is getting hyped that being said, for an outsider (i mainly do BI and DB stuff), it seem like xamarin (C# and F#), flutter (Dart), react native (reasonml) .. might seem like the options to investigate first nowadays i think outside of android development, kotlin .. is not hyped at all
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    Sure, but Android is one of the top 3 most deployed application environments in the world. It's a pretty big and important market.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  I think it is completely unrealistic to expect F# to gain traction in Android. Google would never support it, and I don't think the platform is open enough for others to make it happen.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
edem 8y ago
Maybe but F# has been around for much longer. It failed already to become mainstream.
pjmlp 8y ago
Try to write a UWP or WPF application in F#, use EF designers with F#, follow up on Visual Studio changes related to F#. Heck even PowerShell now has a WinForms designer.
- systems 8y ago
  I think, this might be because F# is community driven, and there is little interest in pushing API that is not portable to Linux F# was always linux friendly, long before .net core

withoutclass 8y ago

Why are you throwing out all kinds of FP languages when Kotlin is not one?

edem 8y ago
Try Arrow.
- withoutclass 8y ago
  I already use arrow :)
KirinDave 8y ago
Kotlin's "not FP" in the way Scala is "not FP" and Swift is "not FP." It's pretty FP, in my experience. Just not strictly. :)
- withoutclass 8y ago
  Notice how none of the langs you point out are not mentioned though. Comparing an FP-light to classical FP languages is not equivalent.

slowmovintarget 8y ago

I'll see your F# and raise you one Clojure.

KirinDave 8y ago
I was around when the Clojure community seemed to make a conscious decision to not chase Android, so it's precisely their decision to miss that train. But I think Clojure isn't in a terrible spot right now. It gets a modest amount of use. More than I think many people imagined it possibly could have.
- slowmovintarget 8y ago
  I sincerely hope Datomic Ions[1] take off, they are an amazing way to run Clojure code. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbthtdBw93w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbthtdBw93w
- yogthos 8y ago
  Clojure approach to mobile development is to piggy back on React Native. Using [re-natal](https://github.com/drapanjanas/re-natal https://github.com/drapanjanas/re-natal) is pretty smooth nowadays, and you get some really nice benefits such as hot code loading, and being able to use re-frame for the UI. React Native works well enough for a lot of apps out there, and makes it relatively easy to write cross-platform apps. So, it's a pretty good platform to build on in my opinion.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    I dunno. I've yet to meet a shop that isn't tactically retreating from it within a year of shipping.
    - yogthos 8y ago
      I've seen about as many companies talking about being happy with it as those retreating from it. Personally, I haven't seen any issues with it that I would consider to be show stoppers.

jbattle 8y ago

Coming from Java - learning Kotlin is borderline trivial. I think having the huge audience of Java (+Android) (+IntelliJ) developers to draw from was a huge advantage for Kotlin.

phillipcarter 8y ago

> People are going TO Kotlin as opposed to the usually Ocaml/F#/Haskell/Idris/Agda world of the community trying to bring people in. The familiarity of C-style syntax and object orientation immediately places Kotlin above ML-style programming languages from the standpoint of adoption. It's a bit unfortunate that this is the case, but selling Android developers on a better C-style OO language than Java is a lot easier than selling them on something different.

jayd16 8y ago

Kotlin has its merits but the only real reason it is where it is is because its JetBrains' language. Kotlin has been treated as a first class citizen in the official Android IDE and one of the major Java IDEs in a way that no other language but Java itself is.

pjmlp 8y ago

F# isn't owned by the .NET team, which then focus on VB.NET and C#, and anything that improves F# just happens to be a "nice to have". They haven't yet bothered to make .NET Native understand the MSIL bytecodes required by F#, for example.