11 ms·
Smart TVs Track More Than What’s on Tonight
- greggarious 8y agoSo what is the justification for this being acceptable behavior (beyond the usual "read the 20 page, graduate-reading-level privacy policy)? Sites like Google and Facebook provide free services in exchange for ads. Personally I think it is ludicrous that a company thinks it OK to use my personal information to enrich themselves, via a device that I paid for.
- matz1 8y agocheaper TV ?
- CtrlAltT5wpm 8y agoThat's never how it works, though. Instead of offering a cheaper TV, they will instead offer a TV priced at what they can sell it for, and make money on the data sale as well. If they WERE to increase the price in exchange for not selling the data, someone would likely ask them why they weren't selling the data anyway, along with the price increase, if sales weren't negatively affected. To not do so would be leaving the money on the table, theoretically. The safest thing to do would be to not have the data at all, avoiding the temptation to sell.
- mhb 8y agoI don't like not having an option either, but that's not a good argument since what they can sell it for is really what number of sales at what price. Presumably they would sell fewer at a higher, non-ad-subsidized price.
- Confiks 8y agoGP argues that they have no incentive to offer a non-ad-subsidized TV at a higher price, because consumers will for the large part not notice ad-(preference-)subsidization or otherwise consider it a factor in the decision to buy such a TV.
- lainga 8y agoPlease see the following statement from our partners at In-Q-Tel...
- crooked-v 8y agoContracts of adhesion, left in place via lack of proper corporate regulation.
- gruez 8y agoYou can literally decline. It's not like you need to accept to use your TV. What do you lose out on? All the "special offers" they're going to send you?
- pm90 8y agoYeah it was incredibly annoying when my new expensive TV played ads when I was trying to browse apps... really? WTF. I've started to rely more on my PS4's apps to view TV. While it does have its own ads, none of them seem as intrusive as the one from the native TV interface.
- zwkrt 8y agoThe PS4 by default puts ads alongside your purchased games, but at least you can turn that off (for now)
- dcd0101 8y agoMy Vizio replaced its built-in, vanilla Chromecast capability with a conventional “smart tv” interface that I didn’t want. And to be able to use that, they force you to accept a TOS that includes monitoring. Worse, I couldn’t tell it to stop connecting to my WiFi after all this happened. I had to ban the TV from my LAN and change the WiFi credentials. I spent a lot of money on that TV, only to have it go rogue on me.
- Washuu 8y agoThe VERY first thing the LG television I bought did was show me an advertisement. I had to blocked its MAC address from the router.
- djrogers 8y agoIf you think Google and Facebook are the only companies doing this on the internet, you're in a for a huge shock. There are tons of companies that do this without providing any service for you. Recall a recent story on HN about Exactis leaking data on 100s of millions of people? That's just one of them, and until the breach almost nobody had ever heard of them.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoTrue. Basically, every time you get an annoying GDPR popup, you've found someone complicit.
- cblock811 8y agoThat's a stretch. I worked on GDPR compliance and it wasn't because of anything underhanded or nefarious. Just had to comply with new regulations.
- chopin 8y agoIf you need a popup you are complicit. In that case it's very likely you are spewing my personal data to third parties.
- cblock811 8y agoIt's the law! I'm not sure how you don't get that. People have to get explicit consent to Terms of Service and marketing. If you don't understand that times change and companies have to adapt to follow the law (with a popup modal of all things gasp) then I'm not sure what to tell ya. Good luck with that mindset.
- notheguyouthink 8y agoArguably though that's just a level of indirection though, isn't it? Ie, I assume most of the sites I visit track me for advertising purposes. This is no different than Google, it's just that with Google I expect the developers of the tracking to be Google directly. With the NewYorkTimes or w/e I don't expect them to be doing it. I expect some random 3rd party to be doing all the real tracking. Now I know nothing about Exactis, but I'd wager (perhaps incorrectly) that their product is directly related to a product I was consuming, such as written news content or w/e.
- gruez 8y agoI'm actually sort-of okay with this. It's opt-in and there's no dark patterns pushing you to accept. The only thing I have qualms with is the obfuscated language they use to say "we send what you watch to advertisers".
- mnm1 8y agoI ask myself this exact question about any and all vendors of machines running Windows 10. Still don't have a good answer other than they do it because there is no law to stop them and it's profitable. I mean why else would a business do this or anything for that matter? The justification therefore must be profit at all costs. The cost here is personal data. The cost in other industries are human lives. Companies enriching themselves at others' expense is the foundation of our society. What companies like Microsoft and Vizio are saying is that the price of the tv is the dollar cost plus a lifetime of data collection. Of course, there's no need to connect to the internet in case of these tvs. People running Windows technically have the same option but it's not such a good solution in that case.
- WalkingMedium 8y agoJumping to Windows 10 is a somewhat bizarre segue from Smart TVs seeing more than they should.
- kimdotcom 8y agoI hope you don't own a cellphone running iOS or Android.
- codedokode 8y agoAndroid is fine as long as you: - don't login into Google Account - don't enable GPS, because every time you enable it, you get a popup suggesting you share your location with Google. If you choose "don't ask me again", the button "decline" gets disabled so that you cannot choose a wrong option by mistake [1] (I wonder, why Google wants to know where I am going to so badly? Did NSA made an offer they couldn't refuse?) - don't have spyware from a manufacturer (noname Chinese phones often have it) [1] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/115944/in-lollipop-5-0-2-every-time-i-turn-on-the-gps-it-wants-me-to-give-permission-t https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/115944/in-lollip...
- alphakappa 8y agoThis happens all the time. Recently I bought a sous-vide machine, and realized that it would phone home with details of my cooking, along with the WiFi AP. Essentially someone at the company would have an idea of my location, along with whether someone was at that location, and maybe my food preferences. The idea that this kind of analytics is not opt-in, and that you are essentially forced to provide this on a product that you paid full price for is ridiculous. It may feel like an overreaction to worry about someone knowing what you are cooking, but how do you guarantee that this information will not be combined with other pieces of data by a third party to create a more complete picture of the user?
- BoysenberryPi 8y agoYou bought a network enabled sous-vide machine?
- Confiks 8y agoI am as shocked as you are are, but apparently they exist: https://www.cookmellow.com https://www.cookmellow.com. A bit like a remotely-programmable slow cooker, but then for the limited amount of ingredients a sous-vide will cook.
- alphakappa 8y agoYes. The newer ones enable control over WiFi. Joule requires you to connect to WiFi to get firmware updates.
- scarface74 8y agoYou don't pay the full cost of the device - at least in the case of Roku devices. Roku is all about making money from advertising - from the home screen where half of it is an ad to the hard coded shortcut buttons on the remote that are sponsored by various streaming providers. While the AppleTV 4K costs a lot more. Apple made a simple proposition -- I give them money and they give me stuff. They don't make money by selling user data.
- medlazik 8y agoEradicating Samba TV from my Sony Android TV was quite a fight. I ended up with a local Pi-hole server blocking everything the TV was trying to access except Netflix. Not optimal but better than nothing...
- move-on-by 8y agoA Pi-hole is the only real solution for this as far as I can tell if you still want to use apps on your TV like Netflix. I use a Pi-hole as well with several block list sources, my favorite being Steven Black's hosts: https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts
- creeble 8y agoThanks for that link! I haven't added a custom block list to my Pi-hole before, this looks more complicated than I would have hoped.
- creeble 8y agoOkay, I see. Just use his hosts file to extend Pi-hole. Not so hard.
- dingaling 8y agoA simple workaround for nefarious vendors is to ignore your DHCP-provided resolver address and just punch through to their own resolver. Maybe over SSL is they're really sneaky. You need to firewall addresses ( tricky ), or connect to a LAN-only Wifi, or don't connect at all.
- mortenjorck 8y agoThe NYT story gives the impression that at least there is a simple opt-out: Is your Sony using some kind of dark patterns to get you to opt back in?
- medlazik 8y ago
- sandworm101 8y ago(1) Who watches TV these days? (2) Most all of the "smart" TVs in my area don't use any of their features. They are all used as dumb monitors. They either take signal from a proprietary cable box, a game device, or some other media player. (3) I have yet to see a TV that requires an internet connection to function. If you have one of these things, blacklist it on your network. At the firewall, or just don't give it your wifi password.
- filleduchaos 8y agoNetflix?
- sandworm101 8y agoYou do Netflix on the TV app? Everyone I know uses an external media device/player for Netflix. The TV apps are either too slow, or just out of date.
- 21 8y ago70% of Netflix users watch it on a TV: https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_13191_netflix_usage_by_device_n.jpg https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_13191_...
- greggarious 8y ago> 70% of Netflix users watch it on a TV: The statistic you're citing lumps together people watching directly on a TV vs using it as a display for a device like a Roku or X-Box, so it doesn't actually support the point you're trying to make :)
- mbell 8y agoI don't think you are understanding how they are identifying content. It doesn't need to playing via the built in 'app'. Basically they are fingerprinting the video feed which passes through the video processors in the TV regardless of the source (internal, external, whatever). This is a video analog of what apps like Shazam do to identify songs. If you are playing content from any source on one of these devices they can detect what the content is and report back on it. About the only way you could avoid this is to never connect the TV to your network, but even that may not be sufficient.
- 4029dlsdkld 8y agoLG has something similar called "Channel Plus" which is an app that has a bunch of (frankly, mediocre) IPTV channels in exchange for you consenting to data collection on everything you watch. I didn't read the TOS closely, but it wasn't clear to me whether it collected data just when you were using the app, or on all content viewed with the TV even in other apps, OTA, etc. I'm suspicious because you have to consent and enable data collection in the global settings for the TV.
- dawnerd 8y agoChannel plus on my oled spams me with notifications even though it’s disabked. Clearly lg doesn’t care.
- iammiles 8y agoI'm actually going to be in the market for a new television later this year. My only use is to watch Netflix, some Blu-rays, and dock my Nintendo Switch to it. Are there any recommended high definition (4k+) televisions that aren't Smart TV's?
- jeromegv 8y agoWould recommend to use an external device for Netflix (Apple TV, Roku, Chromecast, etc) and just block internet entirely from the TV.
- ygra 8y agoHow is the privacy and data collection behavior of those external devices?
- swebs 8y ago>Apple doesn’t gather your personal information to sell to advertisers or other organizations. https://www.apple.com/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/ >Roku Devices regularly upload usage information to Roku as part of their use. The collected information includes the specific identifiers of streams played, duration played, various quality measures, error logs, software version numbers, and other usage statistics. Usage information uploaded from Roku Devices is personally identifiable by product serial number. In some instances, serial numbers are associated with personally identifiable information to aid in customer service and support. https://soundbridge.roku.com/privacy/ https://soundbridge.roku.com/privacy/ >Lol https://policies.google.com/privacy?hl=en https://policies.google.com/privacy?hl=en Also he didn't mention the Raspberry Pi by name, but Linux does not collect your information and you have complete control over everything it does.
- unwiredben 8y agoThat's a very old link to the Roku privacy policy from back before Roku had streaming video products. The current one is at https://docs.roku.com/doc/userprivacypolicy/en-us https://docs.roku.com/doc/userprivacypolicy/en-us
- loriverkutya 8y agoLuckily, we have GDPR in the EU. And they are going to be fined if they are doing the opt-in this way.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y agoI try to tell everyone I know--family, friends, etc.--to never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV for this reason. Use a set-top box. Use a Roku, a Chromecast, a Fire Stick, your old game console--literally anything that you can connect to the TV to watch Netflix on will be better for your privacy than the TV itself. I haven't updated my Samsung 40" TV in about 7 years for this reason. It's damn near impossible to just find a high quality "dumb" TV.
- alyandon 8y agoI've actually gone to the extent of repairing my Samsung with used parts acquired on ebay to avoid upgrading to a "smart" TV.
- bootlooped 8y agoI'm pretty sure you can make a smart tv relatively dumb again by just not connecting it to your network though.
- bhauer 8y agoI worry about the near future where cell connectivity (ala Kindle Whispernet) is cheap enough for these companies to not even bother using your network to exfiltrate data.
- bootlooped 8y agoYes, that is a possibility, but is the percentage of people who don't connect their smart TV going to be high enough to warrant that? I imagine the vast majority of people let their TVs connect, because they want to use Netflix and the other streaming services.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rixrax 8y agoNot so fast. There is IP over HDMI[1] or something so at least some smart-TVs might be able to use internet connection of PS4 or AV receiver or some other gadget in ARC/HDMI chain that is connected to internet. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-to-tv/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-...
- codedokode 8y agoThis is a perfect case where even if you pay you still are the product. Of course this needs regulation.
- logfromblammo 8y agoThis is explicitly why the last TV I bought was a dumb TV. One less privacy nightmare to worry about. Of course, that just shifts the problem to the black box on the other side of the HDMI cable, but I can watch as much over-the-air TV as I want without anyone harvesting my viewing habits. What we need as consumers are laws that would allow the owners of smart televisions, network-connected devices, and any other physical products with included software, to more easily control the behavior of the hardware that they own, without resorting to rooting and jailbreaking to "pwn ur own" property. (Including refusal to honor DRM restrictions.) I don't know why "you can't have your cake, and eat it too" is not an actual legal principle, but you can't sell a hardware device to the consumer and still control what they can or cannot do with it.
- SubiculumCode 8y agoTime to put the TV on the guest network.
- noja 8y agoThat won't stop it collecting data.
- SubiculumCode 8y agoIt would stop collection of data on other devices on network,but yeah.
- TheVikingOwain 8y agoThat depends on how the companies determine “the same network”. If it’s external IP based then a guest network is of no use.
- SubiculumCode 8y agoI own my own router and the guest network is isolated.
- arrty88 8y agoI never connect my smart TVs to wifi. Problem solved
- codedokode 8y agoIt is interesting how they hide important details in long terms and conditions document. Cannot other industries learn from this Silicon Valley invention? For example, a car dealer could hide a condition that they are only temporarily lending a car instead of selling. There are people who don't read the documents they sign carefully.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoI don't think SV invented this. It's just that this hasn't been regulated out of software industry yet.
- calvinbhai 8y agoBought a Vizio in 2017 (because 5 HDMI ports, 4K HDR, dolby vision), and I just couldn't find one non-smart TV that was 4K HDR. So I resorted to use it with Apple TV only (its great that Apple TV also has Dolby Vision support, so DV content looks stunning on this display). I thought I was smart in not connecting the TV to the internets. Once I did connect it for a few days, later at some point Vizio forced me to connect it because, they changed the physical remote, sent it to me for free, and then the UI was blocked until I setup the new remote, which needed internet. For a moment, I thought of returning the TV to Costco saying "it is not working". But I didn't have the patience to do that :-/ So technically, Vizio or any smart TV can prevent you from using the TV after you start using it, if you refuse to update the firmware, remote etc. I'm willing to pay 2x the price I paid for Vizio, if Apple comes out with a display, because thats the only brand I trust for privacy. But only problem in that case, will be HDMI ports. I doubt an Apple Display would have more than 1 or 2 HDMI ports (looking at how they are port unfriendly on Macbooks :)
- dcd0101 8y agoI had this scenario with my Vizio, too (I mentioned it above). I got the new remote amd they had replaced Chromecast firmware with their own smart tv junk that required TOS acceptance for monitoring. I had to ban my own tv from using the network ever again. I assume Google is reporting on my Chromecast usage, but Vizio doing unaccepted updates to essentially brick my tv unless I agree to be monitored? That’s a step or two too far.
- kitsunesoba 8y agoI recently bought a Sony 900F. Great TV, but I’m not connecting it to the internet and the Android “smart” portion may as well not exist. There’s no reason to use it when the Apple TV 4K, PS4, etc all do the smart bits better. I too would pay a sizable premium for a high quality mid-high tier dumb TV just to never have to worry about the associated privacy implications. I’d guess most folks who have any kind of serious media center setups would also agree. Perhaps it’s time for a few boutique TV companies to enter the scene?
- photojosh 8y ago
- stcredzero 8y agoI have a cheapie TCL Roku TV. If I hook up my laptop using HDMI and play something along the lines of a movie Xvid file, a banner notification pops up asking me if I'd like to watch the show on one streaming service of another.
- crtasm 8y agoYuck. How does it know what you're watching? HDMI doesn't expose file names AFAIK.
- stcredzero 8y agoNot sure. Subtle fingerprint encoded in the soundtrack? Fast Fourier analysis fingerprint of a specific span of time near the beginning of the movie?
- contingencies 8y agoA few months ago I bought a new TCL TV here in China. I was amazed when, using it as an external monitor, an ad popped up over the screen which required using the TV remote to dismiss. Never buying TCL again.
- LinuxBender 8y agoSmart TV's are Dumb IoT's. I have found they lack proper implementations of DNS resolvers. They do not obey TTL's and will aggressively retry connections. On the plus side, some of them don't check ssl certs, so you can snoop on the data they gather. [0] You can use tc netem to rate limit the TV and add a lot of packet loss and reordering so make mitm easier, as the TV will retry many times. [0] - https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/cia-mitm-hacking-tool.html https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/cia-mitm-hacking-tool.html
- nogridbag 8y agoI bought an upper midrange dumb TV about 10 years ago (LED, full array dimming) and it's still working flawlessly. The only downside is it has massive bezels and is fairly thick. It might seem silly, but I recently considered upgrading it purely for aesthetic reasons and was ready to spend the money, but the smart TV aspect is a major turnoff so I decided against it for now. Even if I don't use the smart TV features there's still downsides like boot time.
- harveynick 8y agoOne of my main reasons for sticking with an AppleTV instead of switching to a Roku is that Roku also does this, but Apple has a stronger stand on privacy.
- wilsonnb2 8y agoCan anybody give me a good reason why I should care if my TV watching habits are tracked for the purpose of targeted advertisements?