6 ms·

Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Sure, there ar

by gota 8y ago

Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Sure, there are many low-income residents, high inequality, high turnover, low unemployment with low upward job mobility, etc. All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population that makes less than the median income. So, yeah, a more appropriate title would be 'vanishing lower middle class in the US is increasingly facing the same problems as the lower class', which some may argue is identical to 'is becoming poor' (but not technically true) Anyway, at a _personal_ level, nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there

braythwayt 8y ago
> nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there If not the EU, there is this fairly European country that shares timezones with the US and has a reasonable tech scene going on, and you can actually drive back and forth between the US and this country across the longest undefended border in the world. It used to be one of the US's best friends and strongest allies. Before Russia swooped in like a bad new BF/GF and convinced the US that all of its friends are really its enemies. There is already a fair bit of job mobility between this country and the US, and you can get these weird "socialist" things like healthcare and education that won't bankrupt you. You're welcome here.
- yodon 8y ago
  As a general note, it’s better to not use code formatting for quotes because it makes the quotes unreadable on mobile
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    I am deeply disappointed to hear that there is a feature baked into HN that is unreadable on mobile. But now that I know... I'll pay attention.
- mmt 8y ago
  > You're welcome here. I don't think that's strictly true. The last time I drove across the border, I got pulled in for extra scrutiny (random, I assume). I happened to be unemployed at the time and was asked a bunch of questions that seemed very strange, since they included things like how much credit limit I had available on my credit cards. The CBSA agent was very nice and eventually explained that it was to make sure that I really was a tourist and wasn't circumventing the procedure for immigration for employment. My understanding (perhaps incorrect?) is that this procedure is fairly stringent, even for US citizens. Getting a visa for that "reasonable tech scene" requires a degree, last I checked. That makes "education that won't bankrupt you" a bit of a catch-22, until the following generation. More importantly, though, it's been a fairly recent topic of discussion here on HN that tech salaries in the tech hubs of Vancouver and Toronto are very low, especially considering the high cost of living (mostly land/rent) in those locales, even factoring in "socialist" benefits. It's been causing something of a "brain drain" to the US. Perhaps less highly-paid workers in lower-cost areas would fare better, but are they being sought from South of the border? Citation needed :)
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    We have offices in both SF and Toronto, and so far people report that even with an increased salary, the standard of living is higher working in the Toronto office. Generally, the ones who transfer to SF are young and are looking to sacrifice standard of living in exchange for "being part of the scene," which is perfectly rational. The standard of living in Toronto is reportedly quite higher for people with kids, but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. Come work with us and you can conduct your own experiment: Work a year here, a year there, for as long as you need to gather data.
    - mmt 8y ago
      > We have offices in both SF and Toronto I have also read that US companies (especially the big-name ones likes FAMG) who open Canadian offices pay more than purely local ones, so I wonder if merely having offices in both places helps increase the otherwise lackluster compensation. > looking to sacrifice standard of living in exchange for "being part of the scene," which is perfectly rational. I'd say it's only rational if that scene inclusion imparts a real benefit, rather than a perceived one. It's at least arguable that it does, other than providing greater opportunities for different, more highly-paid jobs. > The standard of living in Toronto is reportedly quite higher for people with kids, but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. Is that across the industry or just for your company? Is there a difference between homeowners (who would have a high degree of immunity from rapidly rising home prices) and renters? > Come work with us and you can conduct your own experiment: Work a year here, a year there, for as long as you need to gather data. If only it were that easy (even if you'd hire me). I can't imagine that a year in each place, especially with only one employer, would be nearly enough data, and that's assuming two years at that particular employer would be suitable/acceptable enough not to be the biggest factor in quality-of-life. The other big confounding factor is that you can't really compare SF-to-Toronto, if only because of weather/climate (though I'm sure there are other aspects, not the least of which is whatever lifestyle details someone has become accustomed to already). You'd probably need to do Vancouver-to-SF and Toronto-to-NYC (or maybe Boston). It's probably a reasonable option (if it's actually on offer) for a non-homeowner, without children, just starting a career, but, otherwise, it's not a realistic ask. I'm still not convinced there's any effort being made by Canadian companies or government to recruit employees from the US.
abritinthebay 8y ago
Flawed premise. The lack of a sane social safety net and of a 1st world healthcare system affects everyone in the US. Yes, being well paid in tech helps alleviate some of the issues due to them being absorbed by money, essentially, but that is itself an effect on the spending power & mobility of the individual. The US has effectively mortgaged and remortgaged is population and has not been keeping up on maintaining it. That bill will come due.
- gota 8y ago
  Being well payed is supposed to alleviate these issues to the point where it wouldn't normally justify moving _because of those issues_. You can move because a certain aspect is more appealing to you, as is the case with vacation days for another commenter, for example, but that makes it more a particular case rather than a general trend.
  - r00fus 8y ago
    But being well payed means the prices go up for everything consummately for the area you live in. So any gains in living improvements are offset.
maze-le 8y ago
>> Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Thats a huge generalization. Not everyone reading HN is a top earning software engineer. Some people are just genuineley inerested in HN-topics but earn their wage with something else entireley. And there are lousy paid IT jobs as well. And there are software developers, that don't live in the US or Western Europe and could be in the same situation. Moreover: >> All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population But there are 'disadvantaged' engineers, technologists etc.. There are numerous medical conditions that can make employment nearly impossible, while actual work is possible. Just talk to some HR people if they would hire someone with some sort of chronic disease. Most will be very reluctant, despite the fact that this condition might nevery have material consequences on the work you are doing.
- gota 8y ago
  >> Thats a huge generalization. True. Although now I'm curious what the proportions are. >> And there are lousy paid IT jobs as well. In comparison to other IT jobs, absolutely. In comparison to other industries, not so much. The most basic jobs in IT pay at least as well as other industries, and more often than not from a little to a lot better, no? Anyway, I doubt there are many IT jobs that pay so little that those workers are stuck in the category the article is broadly laying out, though. Your other points all stand. YOu are correct, but the piece is not about these cases and more about the general state of employment and compensation
sandworm101 8y ago
Well, some of us arent in the private sector anymore. I enlisted few years ago because i was tired of the ratrace. Im still doing much of the same tech stuff, near my old home. Pay isnt great but no ratrace and the benifits are amazing. Anyone else get paid exercise days? Im booked for a paid day firing machine guns next month. So, no. Not everyone here is a standard brogrammer.
rbanffy 8y ago
> nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU We don't have Trump here ;-)
CalRobert 8y ago
"Anyway, at a _personal_ level, nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there" Well, for what it's worth my wife and I did just that because we wanted more vacation time and nobody in the US was competitive in that regard, especially for her. I was also pretty near the start of my career and had what you might call a crappy job in LA - I've progressed quite a bit in the 5 years since I got here.
- gota 8y ago
  Sure, this is in line with other comments about healthcare and other benefits. But the piece (and my comment) were more about general employment and compensation

by gota 8y ago

braythwayt 8y ago

> nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there If not the EU, there is this fairly European country that shares timezones with the US and has a reasonable tech scene going on, and you can actually drive back and forth between the US and this country across the longest undefended border in the world. It used to be one of the US's best friends and strongest allies. Before Russia swooped in like a bad new BF/GF and convinced the US that all of its friends are really its enemies. There is already a fair bit of job mobility between this country and the US, and you can get these weird "socialist" things like healthcare and education that won't bankrupt you. You're welcome here.

yodon 8y ago
As a general note, it’s better to not use code formatting for quotes because it makes the quotes unreadable on mobile
- braythwayt 8y ago
  I am deeply disappointed to hear that there is a feature baked into HN that is unreadable on mobile. But now that I know... I'll pay attention.
mmt 8y ago
> You're welcome here. I don't think that's strictly true. The last time I drove across the border, I got pulled in for extra scrutiny (random, I assume). I happened to be unemployed at the time and was asked a bunch of questions that seemed very strange, since they included things like how much credit limit I had available on my credit cards. The CBSA agent was very nice and eventually explained that it was to make sure that I really was a tourist and wasn't circumventing the procedure for immigration for employment. My understanding (perhaps incorrect?) is that this procedure is fairly stringent, even for US citizens. Getting a visa for that "reasonable tech scene" requires a degree, last I checked. That makes "education that won't bankrupt you" a bit of a catch-22, until the following generation. More importantly, though, it's been a fairly recent topic of discussion here on HN that tech salaries in the tech hubs of Vancouver and Toronto are very low, especially considering the high cost of living (mostly land/rent) in those locales, even factoring in "socialist" benefits. It's been causing something of a "brain drain" to the US. Perhaps less highly-paid workers in lower-cost areas would fare better, but are they being sought from South of the border? Citation needed :)
- braythwayt 8y ago
  We have offices in both SF and Toronto, and so far people report that even with an increased salary, the standard of living is higher working in the Toronto office. Generally, the ones who transfer to SF are young and are looking to sacrifice standard of living in exchange for "being part of the scene," which is perfectly rational. The standard of living in Toronto is reportedly quite higher for people with kids, but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. Come work with us and you can conduct your own experiment: Work a year here, a year there, for as long as you need to gather data.
  - mmt 8y ago
    > We have offices in both SF and Toronto I have also read that US companies (especially the big-name ones likes FAMG) who open Canadian offices pay more than purely local ones, so I wonder if merely having offices in both places helps increase the otherwise lackluster compensation. > looking to sacrifice standard of living in exchange for "being part of the scene," which is perfectly rational. I'd say it's only rational if that scene inclusion imparts a real benefit, rather than a perceived one. It's at least arguable that it does, other than providing greater opportunities for different, more highly-paid jobs. > The standard of living in Toronto is reportedly quite higher for people with kids, but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. Is that across the industry or just for your company? Is there a difference between homeowners (who would have a high degree of immunity from rapidly rising home prices) and renters? > Come work with us and you can conduct your own experiment: Work a year here, a year there, for as long as you need to gather data. If only it were that easy (even if you'd hire me). I can't imagine that a year in each place, especially with only one employer, would be nearly enough data, and that's assuming two years at that particular employer would be suitable/acceptable enough not to be the biggest factor in quality-of-life. The other big confounding factor is that you can't really compare SF-to-Toronto, if only because of weather/climate (though I'm sure there are other aspects, not the least of which is whatever lifestyle details someone has become accustomed to already). You'd probably need to do Vancouver-to-SF and Toronto-to-NYC (or maybe Boston). It's probably a reasonable option (if it's actually on offer) for a non-homeowner, without children, just starting a career, but, otherwise, it's not a realistic ask. I'm still not convinced there's any effort being made by Canadian companies or government to recruit employees from the US.

abritinthebay 8y ago

Flawed premise. The lack of a sane social safety net and of a 1st world healthcare system affects everyone in the US. Yes, being well paid in tech helps alleviate some of the issues due to them being absorbed by money, essentially, but that is itself an effect on the spending power & mobility of the individual. The US has effectively mortgaged and remortgaged is population and has not been keeping up on maintaining it. That bill will come due.

gota 8y ago
Being well payed is supposed to alleviate these issues to the point where it wouldn't normally justify moving _because of those issues_. You can move because a certain aspect is more appealing to you, as is the case with vacation days for another commenter, for example, but that makes it more a particular case rather than a general trend.
- r00fus 8y ago
  But being well payed means the prices go up for everything consummately for the area you live in. So any gains in living improvements are offset.

maze-le 8y ago

>> Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Thats a huge generalization. Not everyone reading HN is a top earning software engineer. Some people are just genuineley inerested in HN-topics but earn their wage with something else entireley. And there are lousy paid IT jobs as well. And there are software developers, that don't live in the US or Western Europe and could be in the same situation. Moreover: >> All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population But there are 'disadvantaged' engineers, technologists etc.. There are numerous medical conditions that can make employment nearly impossible, while actual work is possible. Just talk to some HR people if they would hire someone with some sort of chronic disease. Most will be very reluctant, despite the fact that this condition might nevery have material consequences on the work you are doing.

gota 8y ago
>> Thats a huge generalization. True. Although now I'm curious what the proportions are. >> And there are lousy paid IT jobs as well. In comparison to other IT jobs, absolutely. In comparison to other industries, not so much. The most basic jobs in IT pay at least as well as other industries, and more often than not from a little to a lot better, no? Anyway, I doubt there are many IT jobs that pay so little that those workers are stuck in the category the article is broadly laying out, though. Your other points all stand. YOu are correct, but the piece is not about these cases and more about the general state of employment and compensation

sandworm101 8y ago

Well, some of us arent in the private sector anymore. I enlisted few years ago because i was tired of the ratrace. Im still doing much of the same tech stuff, near my old home. Pay isnt great but no ratrace and the benifits are amazing. Anyone else get paid exercise days? Im booked for a paid day firing machine guns next month. So, no. Not everyone here is a standard brogrammer.

rbanffy 8y ago

> nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU We don't have Trump here ;-)

CalRobert 8y ago

"Anyway, at a _personal_ level, nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there" Well, for what it's worth my wife and I did just that because we wanted more vacation time and nobody in the US was competitive in that regard, especially for her. I was also pretty near the start of my career and had what you might call a crappy job in LA - I've progressed quite a bit in the 5 years since I got here.

gota 8y ago
Sure, this is in line with other comments about healthcare and other benefits. But the piece (and my comment) were more about general employment and compensation