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Notice how every sector of the economy that the government is highly involved with (health care, education, real estate) keeps increasing its costs? Your infla

Notice how every sector of the economy that the government is highly involved with (health care, education, real estate) keeps increasing its costs? Your inflated health care bills helped pay for the 280k average salary of physicians (source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overview-6009667 https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie...), which is over 2x as high as Western european doctors' salary. You can thank the aggressive occupational licensing that the AMA engages in that prevents more potential doctors from joining the workforce and keeps salaries high. For instance: Western european doctors do not need a 4-year bachelors degree just to _enter_ medical school. You are also sponsoring drug discovery. United States pays for the drug research, eats the high drug costs, and then Western Europe mooches off our R&D spending. And guess what? Western Europe's free health care is not free: The 50% higher taxes in Western Europe are required to pay for all this.

ceejayoz 8y ago
Europe spends half what we do on healthcare per-capita (and the gap is widening, as their costs historically don't grow as quickly - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-since-1980-gap-widened-u-s-health-spending-countries https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...). Just because our government does a shitty half-assed job of it doesn't mean all governments have to.
- sol_remmy 8y ago
  PolitiFact, a liberal site, rates your claim as FALSE: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/16/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-repeats-flawed-claim-about-us-healt/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/... That graph is not even accurate. This says Canada's health care spending is $6600 per person: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-600-per-person-on-health-care-in-2017-1.3665393?autoPlay=true https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-60... while your graph says its $4500. Those numbers aren't even in the same ballpark.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    The graph is inaccurate because the 2017 and 2015 numbers are different? Find any source - any reputable source - that indicate US healthcare costs are anywhere near the rest of the OECD.
    - sol_remmy 8y ago
      Your graph (2015): United States: $10300 Canada: $4400 Ratio: 2.34 My actual findings (2017): United States: $9250 Canada: $6600 Ratio: 1.40 I think your graph is fake news. Sources: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/04/20/524774195/what-country-spends-the-most-and-least-on-health-care-per-person https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/04/20/5247741... https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-600-per-person-on-health-care-in-2017-1.3665393?autoPlay=true https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-60...
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        "Different sources have slightly different numbers" isn't the same as "fake news". The OECD's numbers are publicly available. The NPR link you cite has Canada at 4576 and the US at 9237, for a ratio of 2.02. The CTV link (citing a different organization; perhaps one considers dental/eyeware and the other doesn't, or something along those lines) doesn't offer US numbers to compare against. Wikipedia has a consistently-sourced list you can peruse, too, for multiple years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
      - jellicle 8y ago
        For one, you seem unaware that Canada has its own currency. You are comparing CAD with USD.
jacobush 8y ago
It's highly involved, but maybe not involved in the right way... the relationship looks rather incestous.
zepto 8y ago
And yet health care costs are lower in countries where the government runs healthcare. Our system of government involvement, where it’s neither a free market, nor a single payer system, is indeed an example of the worst way government can be involved.
- sol_remmy 8y ago
  And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery, and much longer to be admitted into the ER. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-.... And you might die while waiting for your medical care: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/wait-times-canada_b_5505110.html https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/wait-times-cana... And guess what, your taxes are 50% higher to pay for all this.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    > And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. In the US, we just call them "insurance companies". > And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/patient-wait-times-in-america-9-things-to-know.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-rel... > In a survey of 15 large U.S. metropolitan areas conducted by national physician search firm Merritt Hawkins, researchers found the average patient waited approximately 29.3 days to see a family medicine practitioner in 2016, an increase of approximately 50 percent since 2014. > And guess what, your taxes are 50% higher to pay for all this. Europeans pay half what the US does for their healthcare, including taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
    - sol_remmy 8y ago
      > Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? Whatever you say on this does not line up with reality. The UK, a nation of 60 million, has 120,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiting-six-months-surgery-lists-triples-four-years-healthcare-hospital-a7768416.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiti... That would be equivilant to over 640,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery in a country with 320 million people. The wait times do not compare. They are 10x, 20x worse in Europe.
realusername 8y ago
> Your inflated health care bills helped pay for the 280k average salary of physicians (source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie... https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie...), which is over 2x as high as Western european doctors' salary. I doubt that's the majority of the massive cost difference. > For instance: Western european doctors do not need a 4-year bachelors degree just to _enter_ medical school. Don't know where you are basing this but in France, Pharmacist is High School Diploma + 6 years or + 9 year depending on the specialty. So you get out at 24 or 27 year old (best scenario), I doubt that's longer in the US or otherwise there's a big problem there.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Entry to both medical school and law school is usually done straight from high school in the UK.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    Right, and it's two years longer than American medical school, as it's essentially combining the undergrad and the graduate into one program.
  - realusername 8y ago
    Same in France, I guess the US is structured differently but overall it's probably the same amount of years. I doubt they study more than 6 or 9 years after high school or otherwise it's a bit too long.
    - sol_remmy 8y ago
      Post-high school schooling for a standard family doctor (one of the lowest paid doctors): 4 years bachelors + 4 years medical school + 3 years residency = 11 years post-high school education.
      - realusername 8y ago

ceejayoz 8y ago

Europe spends half what we do on healthcare per-capita (and the gap is widening, as their costs historically don't grow as quickly - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-since-1980-gap-widened-u-s-health-spending-countries https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...). Just because our government does a shitty half-assed job of it doesn't mean all governments have to.

sol_remmy 8y ago
PolitiFact, a liberal site, rates your claim as FALSE: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/16/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-repeats-flawed-claim-about-us-healt/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/... That graph is not even accurate. This says Canada's health care spending is $6600 per person: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-600-per-person-on-health-care-in-2017-1.3665393?autoPlay=true https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-60... while your graph says its $4500. Those numbers aren't even in the same ballpark.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  The graph is inaccurate because the 2017 and 2015 numbers are different? Find any source - any reputable source - that indicate US healthcare costs are anywhere near the rest of the OECD.
  - sol_remmy 8y ago
    Your graph (2015): United States: $10300 Canada: $4400 Ratio: 2.34 My actual findings (2017): United States: $9250 Canada: $6600 Ratio: 1.40 I think your graph is fake news. Sources: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/04/20/524774195/what-country-spends-the-most-and-least-on-health-care-per-person https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/04/20/5247741... https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-600-per-person-on-health-care-in-2017-1.3665393?autoPlay=true https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-60...
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      "Different sources have slightly different numbers" isn't the same as "fake news". The OECD's numbers are publicly available. The NPR link you cite has Canada at 4576 and the US at 9237, for a ratio of 2.02. The CTV link (citing a different organization; perhaps one considers dental/eyeware and the other doesn't, or something along those lines) doesn't offer US numbers to compare against. Wikipedia has a consistently-sourced list you can peruse, too, for multiple years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
    - jellicle 8y ago
      For one, you seem unaware that Canada has its own currency. You are comparing CAD with USD.

jacobush 8y ago

It's highly involved, but maybe not involved in the right way... the relationship looks rather incestous.

zepto 8y ago

And yet health care costs are lower in countries where the government runs healthcare. Our system of government involvement, where it’s neither a free market, nor a single payer system, is indeed an example of the worst way government can be involved.

sol_remmy 8y ago
And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery, and much longer to be admitted into the ER. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-.... And you might die while waiting for your medical care: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/wait-times-canada_b_5505110.html https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bacchus-barua-/wait-times-cana... And guess what, your taxes are 50% higher to pay for all this.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  > And the Western European governments have _death panels_ to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves to die. In the US, we just call them "insurance companies". > And, in Western Europe, you must wait over a month for your non-urgent surgery Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/patient-wait-times-in-america-9-things-to-know.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-rel... > In a survey of 15 large U.S. metropolitan areas conducted by national physician search firm Merritt Hawkins, researchers found the average patient waited approximately 29.3 days to see a family medicine practitioner in 2016, an increase of approximately 50 percent since 2014. > And guess what, your taxes are 50% higher to pay for all this. Europeans pay half what the US does for their healthcare, including taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
  - sol_remmy 8y ago
    > Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? Whatever you say on this does not line up with reality. The UK, a nation of 60 million, has 120,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiting-six-months-surgery-lists-triples-four-years-healthcare-hospital-a7768416.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiti... That would be equivilant to over 640,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery in a country with 320 million people. The wait times do not compare. They are 10x, 20x worse in Europe.

realusername 8y ago

> Your inflated health care bills helped pay for the 280k average salary of physicians (source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie... https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie...), which is over 2x as high as Western european doctors' salary. I doubt that's the majority of the massive cost difference. > For instance: Western european doctors do not need a 4-year bachelors degree just to _enter_ medical school. Don't know where you are basing this but in France, Pharmacist is High School Diploma + 6 years or + 9 year depending on the specialty. So you get out at 24 or 27 year old (best scenario), I doubt that's longer in the US or otherwise there's a big problem there.

arethuza 8y ago
Entry to both medical school and law school is usually done straight from high school in the UK.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  Right, and it's two years longer than American medical school, as it's essentially combining the undergrad and the graduate into one program.
- realusername 8y ago
  Same in France, I guess the US is structured differently but overall it's probably the same amount of years. I doubt they study more than 6 or 9 years after high school or otherwise it's a bit too long.
  - sol_remmy 8y ago
    Post-high school schooling for a standard family doctor (one of the lowest paid doctors): 4 years bachelors + 4 years medical school + 3 years residency = 11 years post-high school education.
    - realusername 8y ago