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More interesting to me is that this reply from the editor: >> Editor Casey Stinnett wrote afterwards of the offending paragraph: "Perhaps had Thomas Jefferson

by ada1981 8y ago

More interesting to me is that this reply from the editor: >> Editor Casey Stinnett wrote afterwards of the offending paragraph: "Perhaps had Thomas Jefferson written it as 'Native Americans at a challenging stage of cultural development' that would have been better. >> Seems racist as well. Not from Jefferson, but from the editor. The only real “challenge” was that the colonies wanted their land and resources and were willing to do anything it took to get them.

chippy 8y ago
Could you re-write it so that the bot (or HN readers in the current year) wouldn't detect it as racism?
- ada1981 8y ago
  Perhaps the point is that racism isn’t just words, but also intent. Jefferson was racist, trying to mask that with language may be hard. The closest thing I can come to is just admitting one is racist or awareness of your own projections. “The native Americans are a strong mirror for our own disowned savageness. For the way in which our disconnection from Self and has lead to a quest for power and resources which have blinded us to the common humanity we share with all peoples. Our inability to resolve the savageness we harbor towards our own humanity within us leaves us no choice but the futile attempt to destroy its reflection in those we project it upon.”
- tscs37 8y ago
  Once you figure out what triggers a bot, it's fairly easy to circumvent those bots. I'm fairly certain that you could even automate the transformation of text such that it remains essentially the same without triggering any bots.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tomp 8y ago
Why is it invalid to assign value to two different cultures? E.g. IMO a culture that encourages genital mutilation or slavery is inferior to a culture that doesn't. (Although in practice all such value assignments are highly multi-dimensional, so there might not be an overall ordering.) Edit: This isn't a comment on whether or not Jefferson's evaluation of his and the natives' cultures was valid or correct.. but what I gather from your comment, is that you're implying any such value judgement is "racist" ("culturist"?).
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  It's less 'invalid' than a slippery slope (though I appreciate your counterargument that there are many axes to measure on). For example, it was expedient for Jefferson's government to present the original inhabitants as "merciless savages" since demonizing the people you are forcibly displacing and exterminating is easier to explain away. "Merciless savage" is not some sort of objective comparison of social development, it's a simple denial of common humanity, which seems to always lead to terrible things. Ironically of course the early US was "a culture that encourages slavery" (as were many Native American groups, but never on the same scale).
  - tomp 8y ago
    Oh, yeah, I completely agree that the context makes this more complicated and morally dubious... It's just that these days, people seem to be more opposed to the phrasing of something, as opposed to its actual meaning (or the actions that follow). I definitely think that even if we can all agree that some people are "savages" and their cultures are less worthy in every dimension than ours, this still doesn't give us the right (or excuse) to kill/murder/oppress them.
    - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
      I imagine it would be hard to find a society that is "less worthy in every dimension" than another (and I'd be especially wary of making that comparison with your own society and another). That strikes me as close to the viewpoint Jefferson was espousing, and while I wouldn't suggest romanticizing Native American cultures (also popular, in other circles), they clearly had (and still have) their strengths and weaknesses. So I doubt there could (or should) be any kind of agreement on who are "savages" - in part because that seems to be a much more loaded value judgement than bland but less-loaded glosses like "simpler societies" - plus it's not clear what they're being found wanting for, failing to produce their own Industrial Revolution? Not developing modern medicine? Not writing novels or symphonies? Those are good things, but hardly all that humans are capable of.

chippy 8y ago

Could you re-write it so that the bot (or HN readers in the current year) wouldn't detect it as racism?

ada1981 8y ago
Perhaps the point is that racism isn’t just words, but also intent. Jefferson was racist, trying to mask that with language may be hard. The closest thing I can come to is just admitting one is racist or awareness of your own projections. “The native Americans are a strong mirror for our own disowned savageness. For the way in which our disconnection from Self and has lead to a quest for power and resources which have blinded us to the common humanity we share with all peoples. Our inability to resolve the savageness we harbor towards our own humanity within us leaves us no choice but the futile attempt to destroy its reflection in those we project it upon.”
tscs37 8y ago
Once you figure out what triggers a bot, it's fairly easy to circumvent those bots. I'm fairly certain that you could even automate the transformation of text such that it remains essentially the same without triggering any bots.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tomp 8y ago

Why is it invalid to assign value to two different cultures? E.g. IMO a culture that encourages genital mutilation or slavery is inferior to a culture that doesn't. (Although in practice all such value assignments are highly multi-dimensional, so there might not be an overall ordering.) Edit: This isn't a comment on whether or not Jefferson's evaluation of his and the natives' cultures was valid or correct.. but what I gather from your comment, is that you're implying any such value judgement is "racist" ("culturist"?).

blacksmith_tb 8y ago
It's less 'invalid' than a slippery slope (though I appreciate your counterargument that there are many axes to measure on). For example, it was expedient for Jefferson's government to present the original inhabitants as "merciless savages" since demonizing the people you are forcibly displacing and exterminating is easier to explain away. "Merciless savage" is not some sort of objective comparison of social development, it's a simple denial of common humanity, which seems to always lead to terrible things. Ironically of course the early US was "a culture that encourages slavery" (as were many Native American groups, but never on the same scale).
- tomp 8y ago
  Oh, yeah, I completely agree that the context makes this more complicated and morally dubious... It's just that these days, people seem to be more opposed to the phrasing of something, as opposed to its actual meaning (or the actions that follow). I definitely think that even if we can all agree that some people are "savages" and their cultures are less worthy in every dimension than ours, this still doesn't give us the right (or excuse) to kill/murder/oppress them.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    I imagine it would be hard to find a society that is "less worthy in every dimension" than another (and I'd be especially wary of making that comparison with your own society and another). That strikes me as close to the viewpoint Jefferson was espousing, and while I wouldn't suggest romanticizing Native American cultures (also popular, in other circles), they clearly had (and still have) their strengths and weaknesses. So I doubt there could (or should) be any kind of agreement on who are "savages" - in part because that seems to be a much more loaded value judgement than bland but less-loaded glosses like "simpler societies" - plus it's not clear what they're being found wanting for, failing to produce their own Industrial Revolution? Not developing modern medicine? Not writing novels or symphonies? Those are good things, but hardly all that humans are capable of.