4 ms·

Dying in games has very different meanings. For some, you've lost 3-10 seconds of progress. For others, you lose 3 years of time invested (and potentially money

by keyle 8y ago

Dying in games has very different meanings. For some, you've lost 3-10 seconds of progress. For others, you lose 3 years of time invested (and potentially money). There is also an emotional connection to death in games. Some are happy death, some are dreadful. Take roguelike games for example, dying can be a good thing, you might have been stuck with a weapon or ability you got at the start, and by dying to get rewarded a new 'random' package which happens to be much better.

adrianN 8y ago
You can't really play roguelikes without getting some enjoyment out of dying (or save-scumming). Failure is almost inevitable.
- setr 8y ago
  Not necessarily: I personally dislike death in roguelikes. What I like is that I fear death. It gives a weight to the game thats normally absent I normally quit my roguelike binges when I stop caring about keeping my characters alive, even on a good/long run. In fact, too good a run can even get boring, when I get too confident in my capacity to survive (though this naturally resolves itself when I inevitably splat because of that confidence). But never because I haven't gotten the fun of dying recently; its because I stopped worrying about the possibility/consequence.
  - danielbarla 8y ago
    I think there's two separate concepts, and it can be worthwhile to separate them out, namely ironman (or permadeath), versus roguelikes which encourage more frequent, "short"(-er) games. E.g. you might play a game like XCOM or Europa Universalis on ironman, and that is what will give the situations you encounter the seriousness / gravitas that they deserve, and it can be thrilling. On the other hand, a game like Everspace actually pulls of the "fun of dying" quite nicely. Games are relatively short, especially early on, and unlike most roguelikes your character's skills and weapon choices do survive deaths to some degree. So much of the time, you're dying with a smile on your face, because you know you've just achieved an important milestone, and you can't wait to try again with whatever you just unlocked. I thought it was an interesting hybrid take on the roguelike genre.
    - ferongr 8y ago
      >roguelikes which encourage more frequent, "short"(-er) games Those are roguelites, not roguelikes.
      - taneq 8y ago
        Or "coffee break rogues".
        floatboth 8y ago
        Yeah, "roguelite" usually implies losing some of the big classic elements (e.g. not being turn based). "coffee break" only implies short length.
    - chongli 8y ago
      I would argue that if a game is meant to make dying fun, it isn't a roguelike. The purpose of death in roguelikes is to add the sense of gravitas, as you say. The fun aspect of death is accidental at best. Perhaps a good analogy is with horror movies. Horror movies are meant to scare you. Horror movies can often be funny. But a movie that was intended to be funny is not a horror movie, it's a comedy.
    - setr 8y ago
      >roguelikes which encourage more frequent, "short"(-er) games. I wouldn't say roguelikes encourage shorter games; they encourage long games, and are mechanically designed around long sessions. The difficulty makes it more ..difficult.. to achieve a longer game, but there's absolutely nothing to encourage killing off your character. Someone new to roguelikes, I think, might be perceive that everything revolves around the initial roll of the dice, and the items you find, but the games are balanced such that you should be capable of surviving regardless of the initial roll (except in really, awful, just plain terrible starts). And you'll still trivially die with even a great start. You're encouraged towards a long session, but unlike most games, roguelikes fight really hard to not let you have it. in a similar fashion as https://i.imgur.com/mHXiz.png https://i.imgur.com/mHXiz.png roguelites on the other hand encourage shorter sessions to some degree, by the usual mechanic of meta-rewards that persist between sessions. With it, it's not just less punishing to die; it actively encourages you to die, because you'll be able to start again with a better character, with better equipment, abilities, whatever. And this will inevitably mean you take more risks with your character (like say, investing more in health, because you have a guaranteed strong weapon), and eventually reach the same point as where you died but stronger than before. They push death onto you, whereas a roguelike offers next to nothing. Just another roll, but you'll get those anyways if you push on..
baby 8y ago
That’s why I liked playing minecraft on survival servers. If you die you can’t re-join for something like a week

by keyle 8y ago

adrianN 8y ago

You can't really play roguelikes without getting some enjoyment out of dying (or save-scumming). Failure is almost inevitable.

setr 8y ago
Not necessarily: I personally dislike death in roguelikes. What I like is that I fear death. It gives a weight to the game thats normally absent I normally quit my roguelike binges when I stop caring about keeping my characters alive, even on a good/long run. In fact, too good a run can even get boring, when I get too confident in my capacity to survive (though this naturally resolves itself when I inevitably splat because of that confidence). But never because I haven't gotten the fun of dying recently; its because I stopped worrying about the possibility/consequence.
- danielbarla 8y ago
  I think there's two separate concepts, and it can be worthwhile to separate them out, namely ironman (or permadeath), versus roguelikes which encourage more frequent, "short"(-er) games. E.g. you might play a game like XCOM or Europa Universalis on ironman, and that is what will give the situations you encounter the seriousness / gravitas that they deserve, and it can be thrilling. On the other hand, a game like Everspace actually pulls of the "fun of dying" quite nicely. Games are relatively short, especially early on, and unlike most roguelikes your character's skills and weapon choices do survive deaths to some degree. So much of the time, you're dying with a smile on your face, because you know you've just achieved an important milestone, and you can't wait to try again with whatever you just unlocked. I thought it was an interesting hybrid take on the roguelike genre.
  - ferongr 8y ago
    >roguelikes which encourage more frequent, "short"(-er) games Those are roguelites, not roguelikes.
    - taneq 8y ago
      Or "coffee break rogues".
      - floatboth 8y ago
        Yeah, "roguelite" usually implies losing some of the big classic elements (e.g. not being turn based). "coffee break" only implies short length.
  - chongli 8y ago
    I would argue that if a game is meant to make dying fun, it isn't a roguelike. The purpose of death in roguelikes is to add the sense of gravitas, as you say. The fun aspect of death is accidental at best. Perhaps a good analogy is with horror movies. Horror movies are meant to scare you. Horror movies can often be funny. But a movie that was intended to be funny is not a horror movie, it's a comedy.
  - setr 8y ago
    >roguelikes which encourage more frequent, "short"(-er) games. I wouldn't say roguelikes encourage shorter games; they encourage long games, and are mechanically designed around long sessions. The difficulty makes it more ..difficult.. to achieve a longer game, but there's absolutely nothing to encourage killing off your character. Someone new to roguelikes, I think, might be perceive that everything revolves around the initial roll of the dice, and the items you find, but the games are balanced such that you should be capable of surviving regardless of the initial roll (except in really, awful, just plain terrible starts). And you'll still trivially die with even a great start. You're encouraged towards a long session, but unlike most games, roguelikes fight really hard to not let you have it. in a similar fashion as https://i.imgur.com/mHXiz.png https://i.imgur.com/mHXiz.png roguelites on the other hand encourage shorter sessions to some degree, by the usual mechanic of meta-rewards that persist between sessions. With it, it's not just less punishing to die; it actively encourages you to die, because you'll be able to start again with a better character, with better equipment, abilities, whatever. And this will inevitably mean you take more risks with your character (like say, investing more in health, because you have a guaranteed strong weapon), and eventually reach the same point as where you died but stronger than before. They push death onto you, whereas a roguelike offers next to nothing. Just another roll, but you'll get those anyways if you push on..

baby 8y ago

That’s why I liked playing minecraft on survival servers. If you die you can’t re-join for something like a week