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> - You can now anonymize any message contributor. [...] > - Permission requests are becoming optional, at least for now. Previously we required permission fo

> - You can now anonymize any message contributor. [...] > - Permission requests are becoming optional, at least for now. Previously we required permission for all non-anonymized message contributors, now there will be an option to publish stuff immediately and let people anonymize themselves later if they want. If this is excessively abused we'll re-evaluate this, but we've tried to build things to incentivize good judgment. This is a really an abuse of trust. When I send an email, I expect it to exist for a certain audience that's it. If I wanted it to be public, I would have posted it on a public forum. It's not up to the recipient to decide what should be done with my content. I'm the one that decides that. If you want to get legal about it, as the author, the copyright is mine, not the person I send it to. Not only are you running afoul of privacy, and abuse issues, you're running afoul of legal issues. This is a really abusive idea.

ydushyant 8y ago
I concur! I don't understand, why was there a need of such services anyway...
oblio 8y ago
> If you want to get legal about it, as the author, the copyright is mine, not the person I send it to. Are you sure about this? I doubt that communication can be copyrighted. Once you sent me your email, it's mine, not yours. Otherwise email forwarding in general is completely illegal.
- pluma 8y ago
  This may depend on your jurisdiction but I'm 99% sure this isn't how things work in Germany. First of all, the author retains ownership of the copyright. They can freely redistribute copies of what they have written unless they're subject to an active contract limiting their use of those rights (e.g. a time-limited exclusive license -- IANAL but AIUI there is no such thing as a permanent exclusive license unless you also get perpetually reimbursed). So if you're sent a copyrighted work by its author, you may legitimately infer that you have the right to access it but you don't have the right to republish it or make copies accessible in any commercial way (like an ad-sponsored online platform). Additionally communications are subject to privacy laws. So you may be in violation of the author's personal rights even if you publish their e-mails non-commercially because you violate their "reasonable expectation of privacy". This is not entirely dissimilar to the case of "revenge porn" by the way: if you send your loved one an intimate picture for private use, you can not only ask that they destroy the picture at any point but they are also prohibited from publishing it without your approval. Of course in this case the violation of personal rights also stems from the fact the photo is a depiction of the author. But if you really need a clear example, imagine you are sent the draft of the next Game of Thrones season (or what have you) by its author. Unless you have explicit permission, you have no reason to assume you would then be allowed to go on and publish that document. Even without an NDA there's likely a "reasonable expectation" you will treat it as confidential and you'd be in violation of that by passing it on. Note that I'm talking about my understanding of German (and likely by extension EU) laws, not necessarily American laws. I'm well aware the US has different laws and I suspect those might vary on state level too.
- pluma 8y ago
  I know US HN sometimes has a problem understanding consent and fair use, but those are essential if you want to intuit whether forwarding an e-mail is legal or not. If you're not sure whether the author of an e-mail is okay with it being forwarded, maybe try asking them? If you don't think they'd allow you to (and there's no legal reason to ignore their wishes, e.g. to submit the e-mail as evidence of harassment), maybe you shouldn't?
- Spivak 8y ago
  Yes it can, emails that are more than a few words meet all the criteria for a copyright protection. So it's a case where not every email is copyrighted but almost all non-trivial ones are. "Once you sent me your email, it's mine, not yours." "Once you let me download Star Wars, it's mine, not yours." Email forwarding in general isn't illegal. There are plenty of times where you could forward an email where there are no issues of copyright. Like an autogenerated notification for example, that email wouldn't be copyrighted at all. On the flip side if I send you a copy of my book in an email you certainly don't have the right to forward it as that would be an unauthorized reproduction. The question is generally where certain types of personal and professional communication fall.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  Disclaimer: IANAL. This comment is not a substitute for legal counsel. "Are you sure about this? I doubt that communication can be copyrighted. Once you sent me your email, it's mine, not yours." If you and the recipient both reside in countries which are signatory to the Berne Convention, then this is very much incorrect. Copyright is automatic, and goes to the author. The medium by which I distribute my copyrighted works does not somehow invalidate that automatic copyright. "Otherwise email forwarding in general is completely illegal." In a strict sense, yeah, probably. This is why the FSF and OSI don't consider programs without any license to be suitable for FOSS: in the absence of a license, most countries - thanks to the Berne Convention - assume no permission from the copyright holder at all by default unless otherwise established via a license agreement. Of course, the average person is not going to start suing you for every email from said person you've forwarded without explicit permission; indeed, the average person probably won't know you've ever violated that implicit copyright at all if you're only forwarding it privately. That dynamic changes entirely, however, if you then go on and publish that email as part of a blog post.

ydushyant 8y ago

I concur! I don't understand, why was there a need of such services anyway...

oblio 8y ago

> If you want to get legal about it, as the author, the copyright is mine, not the person I send it to. Are you sure about this? I doubt that communication can be copyrighted. Once you sent me your email, it's mine, not yours. Otherwise email forwarding in general is completely illegal.

pluma 8y ago
This may depend on your jurisdiction but I'm 99% sure this isn't how things work in Germany. First of all, the author retains ownership of the copyright. They can freely redistribute copies of what they have written unless they're subject to an active contract limiting their use of those rights (e.g. a time-limited exclusive license -- IANAL but AIUI there is no such thing as a permanent exclusive license unless you also get perpetually reimbursed). So if you're sent a copyrighted work by its author, you may legitimately infer that you have the right to access it but you don't have the right to republish it or make copies accessible in any commercial way (like an ad-sponsored online platform). Additionally communications are subject to privacy laws. So you may be in violation of the author's personal rights even if you publish their e-mails non-commercially because you violate their "reasonable expectation of privacy". This is not entirely dissimilar to the case of "revenge porn" by the way: if you send your loved one an intimate picture for private use, you can not only ask that they destroy the picture at any point but they are also prohibited from publishing it without your approval. Of course in this case the violation of personal rights also stems from the fact the photo is a depiction of the author. But if you really need a clear example, imagine you are sent the draft of the next Game of Thrones season (or what have you) by its author. Unless you have explicit permission, you have no reason to assume you would then be allowed to go on and publish that document. Even without an NDA there's likely a "reasonable expectation" you will treat it as confidential and you'd be in violation of that by passing it on. Note that I'm talking about my understanding of German (and likely by extension EU) laws, not necessarily American laws. I'm well aware the US has different laws and I suspect those might vary on state level too.
pluma 8y ago
I know US HN sometimes has a problem understanding consent and fair use, but those are essential if you want to intuit whether forwarding an e-mail is legal or not. If you're not sure whether the author of an e-mail is okay with it being forwarded, maybe try asking them? If you don't think they'd allow you to (and there's no legal reason to ignore their wishes, e.g. to submit the e-mail as evidence of harassment), maybe you shouldn't?
Spivak 8y ago
Yes it can, emails that are more than a few words meet all the criteria for a copyright protection. So it's a case where not every email is copyrighted but almost all non-trivial ones are. "Once you sent me your email, it's mine, not yours." "Once you let me download Star Wars, it's mine, not yours." Email forwarding in general isn't illegal. There are plenty of times where you could forward an email where there are no issues of copyright. Like an autogenerated notification for example, that email wouldn't be copyrighted at all. On the flip side if I send you a copy of my book in an email you certainly don't have the right to forward it as that would be an unauthorized reproduction. The question is generally where certain types of personal and professional communication fall.
yellowapple 8y ago
Disclaimer: IANAL. This comment is not a substitute for legal counsel. "Are you sure about this? I doubt that communication can be copyrighted. Once you sent me your email, it's mine, not yours." If you and the recipient both reside in countries which are signatory to the Berne Convention, then this is very much incorrect. Copyright is automatic, and goes to the author. The medium by which I distribute my copyrighted works does not somehow invalidate that automatic copyright. "Otherwise email forwarding in general is completely illegal." In a strict sense, yeah, probably. This is why the FSF and OSI don't consider programs without any license to be suitable for FOSS: in the absence of a license, most countries - thanks to the Berne Convention - assume no permission from the copyright holder at all by default unless otherwise established via a license agreement. Of course, the average person is not going to start suing you for every email from said person you've forwarded without explicit permission; indeed, the average person probably won't know you've ever violated that implicit copyright at all if you're only forwarding it privately. That dynamic changes entirely, however, if you then go on and publish that email as part of a blog post.