5 ms·

Eh, look at it as a filter for true believers. Mercenaries are dangerous, because they have a price.

Gustomaximus 8y ago
It could also create disgruntled employees. Finding people feeling underpaid and undervalued must be prime candidates for foreign agents. While definity not an expert in this, every time I've read about traitors it seems money, sex or ideology drive the betrayal. And the first seems the most common in modern times.
- rangibaby 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames > Ames later said that this financial pressure was what had first led him to consider spying for the Soviet Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen > He never indicated any political or ideological motive for his actions, telling the FBI after he was caught that his only motivation was profit > The FBI paid $7 million to a KGB agent to obtain a file on an anonymous mole, who the FBI later identified as Hanssen through fingerprint and voice analysis.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    Sad they'd spend millions to catch moles but can't somehow afford to pay the crucial people the right sum. If you've got people who have access to valuable information consider their financial situation and adjust their compensation accordingly so they're never left wanting, your enemies will use the same damn information to make them turn on you... Why the hell not beat them to the punch? If they've got their expenses covered they've got no serious reason to commit treason one would think.
    - thelastidiot 8y ago
      Just like Wayne Knight's character Nedry in Jurassic Park, where do you put a stop on what needs to be paid to keep things safe? It's a dangerous game to place a price on safety if the sole determinant is the loyalty of the individual.
      - SuoDuanDao 8y ago
        I never got the 'spared no expense' line until today. Thank you for adding another layer to my favourite childhood movie.
    - hiram112 8y ago
      The two biggest things one can do to lose or be denied access to a security clearance are 1) foreign contacts and travel and 2) financial issues. Most of the security clearance denial appeals are published by the US government, and just from a cursory glance, you can see that mundane credit problems, foreclosures, etc. are the top reason given. * http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2017.html http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2017.html
jessriedel 8y ago
I definitely wouldn't characterize the average government employee as a "true believer" at all. Given the pension-salary ratio, they are mostly selected for being risk adverse and unambitious.
gbhn 8y ago
Perhaps a better analogy: let's say you're hiring people with the offer that you'll pay them $2M the first year, then nothing for 20 years. The danger is that the person will quit. So it is more conservative to offer a deal where you pay them nothing for 20 years, then $2M. Then you're pretty sure they'll stay, especially if they're 15 years in. I think that's probably the best way to understand the salary/pension trade-off. The public sector is geared to be quite risk averse in investments, so it offers back-weighted comp to try to be frugal on training and provide continuity. There's also basically no other employer that can credibly offer this kind of comp, so the public sector, by offering it, can compete quite well for talent in the space of those interested in that configuration. It's not the only way to run things, but it makes some sense.
- brian-armstrong 8y ago
  This system doesn’t work at all if people believe pensions are being cut.
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    Or that you can (apparently? I heard?) lose your pension entirely if you get fired before reaching retirement age. (pension funds should be owned by the person using it, so that you will have access to it at retirement age even when you're fired. An employer should also not be able to take anything from it, and be held liable if they don't pay it.)
- Merad 8y ago
  Do civilian government employees even get a pension plan anymore? I got an offer a few years back from a three letter agency in DC and I'm pretty sure they just had a 401k.
  - yardie 8y ago
    I believe so. Federal employees don’t pay social security so their only fixed income will come from their government pension.
icebraining 8y ago
Or you get mercenaries anyway, that are looking to profit from something else than the salary (ie, corruption).

It could also create disgruntled employees. Finding people feeling underpaid and undervalued must be prime candidates for foreign agents. While definity not an expert in this, every time I've read about traitors it seems money, sex or ideology drive the betrayal. And the first seems the most common in modern times.

rangibaby 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames > Ames later said that this financial pressure was what had first led him to consider spying for the Soviet Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen > He never indicated any political or ideological motive for his actions, telling the FBI after he was caught that his only motivation was profit > The FBI paid $7 million to a KGB agent to obtain a file on an anonymous mole, who the FBI later identified as Hanssen through fingerprint and voice analysis.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  Sad they'd spend millions to catch moles but can't somehow afford to pay the crucial people the right sum. If you've got people who have access to valuable information consider their financial situation and adjust their compensation accordingly so they're never left wanting, your enemies will use the same damn information to make them turn on you... Why the hell not beat them to the punch? If they've got their expenses covered they've got no serious reason to commit treason one would think.
  - thelastidiot 8y ago
    Just like Wayne Knight's character Nedry in Jurassic Park, where do you put a stop on what needs to be paid to keep things safe? It's a dangerous game to place a price on safety if the sole determinant is the loyalty of the individual.
    - SuoDuanDao 8y ago
      I never got the 'spared no expense' line until today. Thank you for adding another layer to my favourite childhood movie.
  - hiram112 8y ago
    The two biggest things one can do to lose or be denied access to a security clearance are 1) foreign contacts and travel and 2) financial issues. Most of the security clearance denial appeals are published by the US government, and just from a cursory glance, you can see that mundane credit problems, foreclosures, etc. are the top reason given. * http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2017.html http://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2017.html

jessriedel 8y ago

I definitely wouldn't characterize the average government employee as a "true believer" at all. Given the pension-salary ratio, they are mostly selected for being risk adverse and unambitious.

gbhn 8y ago

Perhaps a better analogy: let's say you're hiring people with the offer that you'll pay them $2M the first year, then nothing for 20 years. The danger is that the person will quit. So it is more conservative to offer a deal where you pay them nothing for 20 years, then $2M. Then you're pretty sure they'll stay, especially if they're 15 years in. I think that's probably the best way to understand the salary/pension trade-off. The public sector is geared to be quite risk averse in investments, so it offers back-weighted comp to try to be frugal on training and provide continuity. There's also basically no other employer that can credibly offer this kind of comp, so the public sector, by offering it, can compete quite well for talent in the space of those interested in that configuration. It's not the only way to run things, but it makes some sense.

brian-armstrong 8y ago
This system doesn’t work at all if people believe pensions are being cut.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Or that you can (apparently? I heard?) lose your pension entirely if you get fired before reaching retirement age. (pension funds should be owned by the person using it, so that you will have access to it at retirement age even when you're fired. An employer should also not be able to take anything from it, and be held liable if they don't pay it.)
Merad 8y ago
Do civilian government employees even get a pension plan anymore? I got an offer a few years back from a three letter agency in DC and I'm pretty sure they just had a 401k.
- yardie 8y ago
  I believe so. Federal employees don’t pay social security so their only fixed income will come from their government pension.

icebraining 8y ago

Or you get mercenaries anyway, that are looking to profit from something else than the salary (ie, corruption).