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You are mentioning retraining people who have already been through the education system. Weinstein is advocating restructuring the education system from one tha

by smadge 8y ago

You are mentioning retraining people who have already been through the education system. Weinstein is advocating restructuring the education system from one that creates docile workers who perform repetitive tasks for a wage to one that encourages creativity and initiative. I also think you underestimate how many people have given up their passion to the reality that they need to plug themselves into capitalism to survive. If given an opportunity to pursue that passion instead of living paycheck to paycheck I think we might see a intellectual and cultural golden age.

kermittd 8y ago
I couldn't agree more! I'm really disheartened at the pessimism that some HN members show towards people working low paying/status jobs.
classichasclass 8y ago
No, I think you overestimate it. There's this belief that circulates that people's occupations or pursuits are determined by their circumstances; they're bricklayers or plumbers or whatever due to a combination of factors beyond their control, and given the right magical combination of UBI/education/retraining/pixie dust, they'll move to some other job. Meanwhile, my father-in-law was a tradie since he was a kid and even in retirement, supposedly freed of any occupational needs or financial necessity, he still does it because he likes to. I don't see him writing a screenplay or orchestrating a symphony. It's not his bag. I agree that re-education and first education are certainly two different things, and I even agree that we would get more people interested in the creative pursuits if they were inculcated in them at an early age, but I disagree that this is the entire solution or even a substantial part of it because not everyone has that inclination.
- neffy 8y ago
  Working all your life in physical labour, to provide ungrateful offspring with the chances you never had will do that to you.
- sewercake 8y ago
  I think you're conflating trades, which often provide solid incomes, and lots of room for creativity, learning, and skill-development, with mind-numbing service jobs like being a cashier, delivery drivers, or call-center employees. There is also some conflation between 'creativity', and 'artistic inclinations'. Lots of things require creativity, artistic practices only being one of them.
  - smadge 8y ago
    I second this. I wasn’t saying everyone should be painters or musicians or novel writers.
  - codebje 8y ago
    My brother-in-law prefers a mind-numbing job. He was a cashier for many years, until they promoted him to management and he had to have his mind "in the job" even outside of work hours, then switched to being a delivery driver, which is working out as his dream job - he can listen to sports broadcasts while driving, and when the deliveries are done, so is the job. No part of it comes home. He has a degree in sports journalism, so he can be creative, and learn, and develop skills, it's that he doesn't want to do that for a job.
    - aninhumer 8y ago
      I suspect the reason he doesn't want that job is that he doesn't want the stress and responsibilities associated with that job, not that he doesn't like being creative.
musage 8y ago
> Well, I think here you point out to one, really, of the basic defects of our system: that the individual citizen has very little possibility of having any influence - of making his opinion felt in the decision-making. And I think that, in itself, leads to a good deal of political lethargy and stupidity. It is true that one has to think first and then to act -but it's also true that if one has no possibility of acting, one's thinking kind of becomes empty and stupid. -- The Mike Wallace Interview: Erich Fromm (1958-05-25) [ http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/fromm_erich_t.html http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/from... / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTu0qJG0NfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTu0qJG0NfU ] If you bind two fingers together, nerves and muscles that can make no difference anymore (because of external constraints) become numb or even die off. This is trivially true, it's not surprising in the least. Few people deny it because they lack the inherent capacity to understand it, but because they themselves are bound in some way, too. Compare the fact that your comment is greyed out, even though it's perfectly polite and coherent, with the discussion in the video above. It's gotten much worse, much more uptight and cowardly.
- smadge 8y ago
  Thank you for linking to the Erich Fromm interview! I have never heard of him before, but I find myself agreeing with most of his statements in this interview. What strikes me, and are relevant to this discussion, are his thoughts on alienation in the workplace and how production and consumption have become ends upon themselves, not means to increase the dignity of humankind.

by smadge 8y ago

kermittd 8y ago

I couldn't agree more! I'm really disheartened at the pessimism that some HN members show towards people working low paying/status jobs.

classichasclass 8y ago

No, I think you overestimate it. There's this belief that circulates that people's occupations or pursuits are determined by their circumstances; they're bricklayers or plumbers or whatever due to a combination of factors beyond their control, and given the right magical combination of UBI/education/retraining/pixie dust, they'll move to some other job. Meanwhile, my father-in-law was a tradie since he was a kid and even in retirement, supposedly freed of any occupational needs or financial necessity, he still does it because he likes to. I don't see him writing a screenplay or orchestrating a symphony. It's not his bag. I agree that re-education and first education are certainly two different things, and I even agree that we would get more people interested in the creative pursuits if they were inculcated in them at an early age, but I disagree that this is the entire solution or even a substantial part of it because not everyone has that inclination.

neffy 8y ago
Working all your life in physical labour, to provide ungrateful offspring with the chances you never had will do that to you.
sewercake 8y ago
I think you're conflating trades, which often provide solid incomes, and lots of room for creativity, learning, and skill-development, with mind-numbing service jobs like being a cashier, delivery drivers, or call-center employees. There is also some conflation between 'creativity', and 'artistic inclinations'. Lots of things require creativity, artistic practices only being one of them.
- smadge 8y ago
  I second this. I wasn’t saying everyone should be painters or musicians or novel writers.
- codebje 8y ago
  My brother-in-law prefers a mind-numbing job. He was a cashier for many years, until they promoted him to management and he had to have his mind "in the job" even outside of work hours, then switched to being a delivery driver, which is working out as his dream job - he can listen to sports broadcasts while driving, and when the deliveries are done, so is the job. No part of it comes home. He has a degree in sports journalism, so he can be creative, and learn, and develop skills, it's that he doesn't want to do that for a job.
  - aninhumer 8y ago
    I suspect the reason he doesn't want that job is that he doesn't want the stress and responsibilities associated with that job, not that he doesn't like being creative.

musage 8y ago

> Well, I think here you point out to one, really, of the basic defects of our system: that the individual citizen has very little possibility of having any influence - of making his opinion felt in the decision-making. And I think that, in itself, leads to a good deal of political lethargy and stupidity. It is true that one has to think first and then to act -but it's also true that if one has no possibility of acting, one's thinking kind of becomes empty and stupid. -- The Mike Wallace Interview: Erich Fromm (1958-05-25) [ http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/fromm_erich_t.html http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/from... / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTu0qJG0NfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTu0qJG0NfU ] If you bind two fingers together, nerves and muscles that can make no difference anymore (because of external constraints) become numb or even die off. This is trivially true, it's not surprising in the least. Few people deny it because they lack the inherent capacity to understand it, but because they themselves are bound in some way, too. Compare the fact that your comment is greyed out, even though it's perfectly polite and coherent, with the discussion in the video above. It's gotten much worse, much more uptight and cowardly.

smadge 8y ago
Thank you for linking to the Erich Fromm interview! I have never heard of him before, but I find myself agreeing with most of his statements in this interview. What strikes me, and are relevant to this discussion, are his thoughts on alienation in the workplace and how production and consumption have become ends upon themselves, not means to increase the dignity of humankind.