5 ms·

Bavarian raids

45 points by rendx 8y ago

xashor 8y ago
Might be a good time to donate. Especially Zwiebelfreunde will need money to cover their lawyers. Note that if you donate via IBAN, your account data will likely be in the hands of the police. At least when the next raid happens. RiseUp: https://riseup.net/donate https://riseup.net/donate Zwiebelfreunde: https://www.torservers.net/donate.html https://www.torservers.net/donate.html
- sandov 8y ago
  I'm against the raiding of servers, but want to point out that that Riseup are radical leftists, just so you know who you're donating to.
  - thecrash 8y ago
    They are radical anarchists. If you're going to try to split this along ideological lines, at least get the ideologies right.
    - lainga 8y ago
      Radical anarchism could also cover an anarcho-capitalist with a Recreational McNuke (tm) as well, though.
    - sandov 8y ago
      IMO, Anarchy definitions are not consistent enough to use the term univocally, definitions sometimes contradict each other. They are leftists, because they see capitalism (and hence private property) as oppression and want to abolish it (instead of the moderate leftists who just want to regulate it in 'favor' of poor people), that makes them radical leftists.
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        Most people on the left want regulation to provide a universal safety net, if you want to regulate capitalism to favor poor people you are essentially for full on wealth redistribution which does put you on the radical side.
    - LaGrange 8y ago
      Naw, it's fine. "Leftist," used as an insult, was invented by actual bolsheviks to insult left-coms, mostly anarchists. It's a term many of us wear with pride.
  - LaGrange 8y ago
    Yes, that's why one should donate to them.
bwjsin 8y ago
If you’re thinking of donating, remember: you’ll be giving your money to people who are open about being anarchists and communists.
- communist_ 8y ago
  Why do you think people are donating? It's not a secret. Like you note, they are open about it.
- GW150914 8y ago
  How on Earth can you be both Communist and Anarchist?
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism
    - GW150914 8y ago
      Jesus... some people will buy into just about anything. If human beings could live that way, they wouldn’t need to live that way.
demian00 8y ago
>What caused the police-state to raise up its ugly head? In this case, the justification was a website created to organize against a rally of an extreme right political party. It seems in Bavaria, you cannot make a website that tries to get people to come protest neo-fascists without also offending the police. This is simply wrong. The website called for violence. Also riseup is a communist organization.
- teamhappy 8y ago
  > The website called for violence. That's actually true. I don't know why both the CCC and Riseup feel the need to exclude that the website explicitly asked for violent protests. It doesn't change the fact that the raids were pointless and to some extend disproportionate. It sure is a good way to give up the moral high ground though.
  - lainga 8y ago
    It'd be dumb to give out ammo against their case, whether the point is legitimate or not.
- ColanR 8y ago
  Who's downvoting this? I don't see any unfactual or inappropriate statements.
  - mikejb 8y ago
    Influencing public perception by mass up-/downvoting is not a right-wing only strategy, it's in every extremists' arsenal.
  - pcstl 8y ago
    Possibly the person who created an account literally named "communist" to comment on this.
    - communist_ 8y ago
      New users can't downvote.
zellyn 8y ago
There are several comments here to the effect that Riseup is “communist” (although I cannot tell whether that's intended as a slur or compliment). Reading their “About us” and even “Political Principles” page, there's nothing terribly Communisty. Anyone have a pointer to backstory?
- sandov 8y ago
  >We do this by providing communication and computer resources to allies engaged in struggles against capitalism and other forms of oppression. To them, capitalism is a form of oppression.
- lainga 8y ago
  They are at the very least anti-capitalist. I won't make any assumptions beyond that, but in the West it is not so big a leap of faith from one to the other. https://riseup.net/en/about-us https://riseup.net/en/about-us Our purpose is to aid in the creation of a free society, a world with freedom from want and freedom of expression, a world without oppression or hierarchy, where power is shared equally. We do this by providing communication and computer resources to allies engaged in struggles against capitalism and other forms of oppression. We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism, and vanguardism (possibly a reference to Leninist party vanguardism, which anarcho-communists reject.) We work to create revolution and a free society in the here and now Also FWIW, their favicon is a star in anarcho-communist colours.
- imbokodo 8y ago
  You are correct. Their about page says "We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism and vanguardism". Opposing authoritarianism is implicitly saying they are not communist, saying they are against vanguardism (a word used by Lenin) means they are explicitly saying they are not communist. Also as their web page says, they are not really a group with an ideology. They are a bunch of left-leaning techs who provide mailing lists, web site service etc. for left-leaning groups who "believe it is vital that essential communication infrastructure be controlled by movement organizations and not corporations". My guess for what happened - the police were looking for one person or group that uses Riseup. As so many progressive organizations use Riseup, the targeting of one user or group of the service became a targeting of five locations, of people who provide the technological infrastructure of much of the left in Germany.
jamiek88 8y ago
Standard: communists calling for violence reaction in here without any of he commenters supplying any sort of links that demonstrate that. Thought and discussion termination isn’t cool.
alexhektor 8y ago
while I have upvoted this story and deeply sympathize with the victims of what appears to be a wide 'overreach of power' by the police, I also had a look at the website that was the 'cause' of this raid. !!! EDIT: I was under the impression, that this was their website. This is absolutely NOT proven and changes my viewpoint drastically !!! While I deeply sympathize with the political views and what they are protesting (a far right-wing party in germany), they have published/written tutorials on different forms/tools of protesting ranging from 'peaceful' tools like grafitti and the use of colors up to how to use stones, nails in boards (wood boards? similar to this: https://bit.ly/2tTF0kp https://bit.ly/2tTF0kp) in order to stop cars or even how to burn cars. Now I'm not a lawyer, but while tutorials/information like this in itself probably isn't illegal, I assume there are laws that prohibit spurring people to protest using 'force'/violence. The context of this website and having those tutorials on it (including use gloves if you are using stones, because there could be fingerprints on it) combined with locations of AFD (super right-wing party) friendly locations can easily be seen/interpreted as a 'call to "violence"'. It's a super interesting debate, but it's not as black and white as those CCC members make it appear. Again, I deeply sympathize with their cause - I am probably not perfectly OK with their methods, though. edit: the website (in german) for those who want to judge themselves: https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ Loosely translated: "Augsburg (city) for riot tourists"
- madc 8y ago
  Is is worth mentioning that the german police has stated, that the only connection between this website and the people raided is, that they process donations for riseup. They have nothing to do with this website. And the police never thought, that they have.
  - alexhektor 8y ago
    you're right. I reread the article on Spiegel, and got the impression they were.
imbokodo 8y ago
To translate what happened into HN terms and analogy: the Open Source Initiative is an umbrella organization which advocates for Mozilla, Linux, Debian, Python, Apache and other open source projects. Riseup.net is similar. It is not a group with a very specific ideology, it is an umbrella organization which many organizations are associated with, inside and outside of Germany. In the case of Riseup.net they are an umbrella for left-leaning groups. As their web site says, they provide tech services like email, web etc. The raids on five locations were on Riseup.net, this umbrella tech organization which provides tech resources for much of the left. Look at Riseup.net's mailing lists. Thousands of left-leaning groups have mailing lists there. Riseup is not an organization with a narrow focus. It is like a GitHub or Gmail of the left. What probably happened is the German police were focusing on one person or group using the service, and raided not the members of that one mailing list, but the overarching umbrella organization that has 999 mailing lists on feminism and such.
dang 8y ago
Discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17456289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17456289

45 points by rendx 8y ago

Might be a good time to donate. Especially Zwiebelfreunde will need money to cover their lawyers. Note that if you donate via IBAN, your account data will likely be in the hands of the police. At least when the next raid happens. RiseUp: https://riseup.net/donate https://riseup.net/donate Zwiebelfreunde: https://www.torservers.net/donate.html https://www.torservers.net/donate.html

sandov 8y ago
I'm against the raiding of servers, but want to point out that that Riseup are radical leftists, just so you know who you're donating to.
- thecrash 8y ago
  They are radical anarchists. If you're going to try to split this along ideological lines, at least get the ideologies right.
  - lainga 8y ago
    Radical anarchism could also cover an anarcho-capitalist with a Recreational McNuke (tm) as well, though.
  - sandov 8y ago
    IMO, Anarchy definitions are not consistent enough to use the term univocally, definitions sometimes contradict each other. They are leftists, because they see capitalism (and hence private property) as oppression and want to abolish it (instead of the moderate leftists who just want to regulate it in 'favor' of poor people), that makes them radical leftists.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Most people on the left want regulation to provide a universal safety net, if you want to regulate capitalism to favor poor people you are essentially for full on wealth redistribution which does put you on the radical side.
  - LaGrange 8y ago
    Naw, it's fine. "Leftist," used as an insult, was invented by actual bolsheviks to insult left-coms, mostly anarchists. It's a term many of us wear with pride.
- LaGrange 8y ago
  Yes, that's why one should donate to them.

bwjsin 8y ago

If you’re thinking of donating, remember: you’ll be giving your money to people who are open about being anarchists and communists.

communist_ 8y ago
Why do you think people are donating? It's not a secret. Like you note, they are open about it.
GW150914 8y ago
How on Earth can you be both Communist and Anarchist?
- blattimwind 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism
  - GW150914 8y ago
    Jesus... some people will buy into just about anything. If human beings could live that way, they wouldn’t need to live that way.

demian00 8y ago

>What caused the police-state to raise up its ugly head? In this case, the justification was a website created to organize against a rally of an extreme right political party. It seems in Bavaria, you cannot make a website that tries to get people to come protest neo-fascists without also offending the police. This is simply wrong. The website called for violence. Also riseup is a communist organization.

teamhappy 8y ago
> The website called for violence. That's actually true. I don't know why both the CCC and Riseup feel the need to exclude that the website explicitly asked for violent protests. It doesn't change the fact that the raids were pointless and to some extend disproportionate. It sure is a good way to give up the moral high ground though.
- lainga 8y ago
  It'd be dumb to give out ammo against their case, whether the point is legitimate or not.
ColanR 8y ago
Who's downvoting this? I don't see any unfactual or inappropriate statements.
- mikejb 8y ago
  Influencing public perception by mass up-/downvoting is not a right-wing only strategy, it's in every extremists' arsenal.
- pcstl 8y ago
  Possibly the person who created an account literally named "communist" to comment on this.
  - communist_ 8y ago
    New users can't downvote.

zellyn 8y ago

There are several comments here to the effect that Riseup is “communist” (although I cannot tell whether that's intended as a slur or compliment). Reading their “About us” and even “Political Principles” page, there's nothing terribly Communisty. Anyone have a pointer to backstory?

sandov 8y ago
>We do this by providing communication and computer resources to allies engaged in struggles against capitalism and other forms of oppression. To them, capitalism is a form of oppression.
lainga 8y ago
They are at the very least anti-capitalist. I won't make any assumptions beyond that, but in the West it is not so big a leap of faith from one to the other. https://riseup.net/en/about-us https://riseup.net/en/about-us Our purpose is to aid in the creation of a free society, a world with freedom from want and freedom of expression, a world without oppression or hierarchy, where power is shared equally. We do this by providing communication and computer resources to allies engaged in struggles against capitalism and other forms of oppression. We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism, and vanguardism (possibly a reference to Leninist party vanguardism, which anarcho-communists reject.) We work to create revolution and a free society in the here and now Also FWIW, their favicon is a star in anarcho-communist colours.
imbokodo 8y ago
You are correct. Their about page says "We oppose all forms of prejudice, authoritarianism and vanguardism". Opposing authoritarianism is implicitly saying they are not communist, saying they are against vanguardism (a word used by Lenin) means they are explicitly saying they are not communist. Also as their web page says, they are not really a group with an ideology. They are a bunch of left-leaning techs who provide mailing lists, web site service etc. for left-leaning groups who "believe it is vital that essential communication infrastructure be controlled by movement organizations and not corporations". My guess for what happened - the police were looking for one person or group that uses Riseup. As so many progressive organizations use Riseup, the targeting of one user or group of the service became a targeting of five locations, of people who provide the technological infrastructure of much of the left in Germany.

jamiek88 8y ago

Standard: communists calling for violence reaction in here without any of he commenters supplying any sort of links that demonstrate that. Thought and discussion termination isn’t cool.

alexhektor 8y ago

while I have upvoted this story and deeply sympathize with the victims of what appears to be a wide 'overreach of power' by the police, I also had a look at the website that was the 'cause' of this raid. !!! EDIT: I was under the impression, that this was their website. This is absolutely NOT proven and changes my viewpoint drastically !!! While I deeply sympathize with the political views and what they are protesting (a far right-wing party in germany), they have published/written tutorials on different forms/tools of protesting ranging from 'peaceful' tools like grafitti and the use of colors up to how to use stones, nails in boards (wood boards? similar to this: https://bit.ly/2tTF0kp https://bit.ly/2tTF0kp) in order to stop cars or even how to burn cars. Now I'm not a lawyer, but while tutorials/information like this in itself probably isn't illegal, I assume there are laws that prohibit spurring people to protest using 'force'/violence. The context of this website and having those tutorials on it (including use gloves if you are using stones, because there could be fingerprints on it) combined with locations of AFD (super right-wing party) friendly locations can easily be seen/interpreted as a 'call to "violence"'. It's a super interesting debate, but it's not as black and white as those CCC members make it appear. Again, I deeply sympathize with their cause - I am probably not perfectly OK with their methods, though. edit: the website (in german) for those who want to judge themselves: https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ https://augsburgfuerkrawalltouristen.noblogs.org/ Loosely translated: "Augsburg (city) for riot tourists"

madc 8y ago
Is is worth mentioning that the german police has stated, that the only connection between this website and the people raided is, that they process donations for riseup. They have nothing to do with this website. And the police never thought, that they have.
- alexhektor 8y ago
  you're right. I reread the article on Spiegel, and got the impression they were.

imbokodo 8y ago

To translate what happened into HN terms and analogy: the Open Source Initiative is an umbrella organization which advocates for Mozilla, Linux, Debian, Python, Apache and other open source projects. Riseup.net is similar. It is not a group with a very specific ideology, it is an umbrella organization which many organizations are associated with, inside and outside of Germany. In the case of Riseup.net they are an umbrella for left-leaning groups. As their web site says, they provide tech services like email, web etc. The raids on five locations were on Riseup.net, this umbrella tech organization which provides tech resources for much of the left. Look at Riseup.net's mailing lists. Thousands of left-leaning groups have mailing lists there. Riseup is not an organization with a narrow focus. It is like a GitHub or Gmail of the left. What probably happened is the German police were focusing on one person or group using the service, and raided not the members of that one mailing list, but the overarching umbrella organization that has 999 mailing lists on feminism and such.

dang 8y ago

Discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17456289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17456289