5 ms·

I understand some of the searches took place outside of Bavaria, though (Berlin, etc.)? How does the German legal system work in this case, does police in other

I understand some of the searches took place outside of Bavaria, though (Berlin, etc.)? How does the German legal system work in this case, does police in other German states automatically cooperate with requests from Bavaria even when there's potentially a discrepancy between the laws used to provide the legal justification for the actions in question? I've seen a general sentiment in HN and other tech circles over the years that Germany is much less of a police state than the U.S. or the UK, for instance, and generally has greater respect for privacy and other rights many of us care about. Do you feel that perception is still broadly accurate?

germanier 8y ago
The basics of house searches are regulated in federal law. Criminal law itself is federal only (i.e. everything that is a crime in Bavaria is also one in Berlin). In a criminal investigation any German judge can order a search wherever they seem fit. The police responsible for that place is then required to execute the search. The details of the search are regulated in state law which the police then follows. I can't think of a relevant legal discrepancy that may exist between the laws for ordering searches (there are very tight rules set by the Federal Constitutional Court) but I presume the judge has to take into account the laws where the search takes place. On the other hand my knowledge on criminal investigation law is very rusty.
Tomte 8y ago
I think they do, but I'm not 100% certain. I don't know how far you want to define "police state", but in general, SWATting won't be terribly successful here, the only police units with near-military equipment are special units like the GSG9, and while there's certainly racism, and also at least one probable murder (Oury Jalloh), our police doesn't regurlarly murder minorities. If you limit it to surveillance etc., you will find better countries.
- keldaris 8y ago
  The militarization of police is largely a U.S. problem among first world countries. As a practical matter I'm more concerned about things like investigations with poor judicial oversight, poorly justified police searches, warrantless or rubber stamped surveillance, frivolous information requests, general lack of respect for privacy rights, etc. France, for instance, unfortunately seems to have moved quite a bit in that direction after the terrorist attacks of recent years. I've not heard of a similar trend in Germany, but it's always nice to hear an informed perspective from people who actually live there.
  - _ak 8y ago
    Militarization of police is happening in Germany, as well: * Police special forces (SEK which are organized on the state level unlike GSG9 which are state police) have switched from blue to military-like green/brown uniforms (which have no tactical value, but that's another discussion). * Police in e.g. Berlin are changing their fully automatic weapons by phasing out the 9mm MP-5 and replacing it with 5.56x45 G36 assault rifles for "anti-terror defense" purposes. * More and more police units are equipped with armored wheeled tanks. * Peaceful left-wing demonstrations in some states are regularly "secured" by special forces equipped with tactical equipment including assault rifles, a clear intimidation tactic. SEK units aren't even being trained to handle demos. * Crime statistics are recorded in bizarre ways to artificially inflate anti-police violence, which in turn forms the basis for police unions to demand stricter laws. For example, any attack on a single police man is counted as an attack against their whole unit, and suddenly one victim becomes 10 victims in the statistics.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      1. The color of the uniform doesn't seem relevant to me. 2. The MP-5 is just as "military" as the G36. 3. I doubt that. Yes, there are water throwers that are highly armored, but that's nothing new, nor bad. 4. That sounds just a little biased. 5. That sounds not true. Certainly you should post sources for that extraordinary claim.
      - vsl 8y ago
        > 2. The MP-5 is just as "military" as the G36. What the grandparent meant, I'd think, is the difference in the round. H&K MP5 uses 9mm Luger, pistol ammunition with significantly lower energy, range and penetration than 5.56x45mm NATO. One of those is suitable for police work too, one is only suitable for military or hunting. This matters in urban areas, in police work, in use by inexperienced shooters (pretty much any policeman except for specialized units by definition, unless they train in their spare time, which is… somewhat difficult in Germany). 5.56x45 absolutely is "military" and equipping 5.56x45 riffles to regular police units doing patrol duty in cities absolutely is "militarization". > 3. I doubt that. Yes, there are water throwers that are highly armored, but that's nothing new, nor bad. The emphasis of that statement was on "more". While such hardware is sometimes needed, and so are "militarized" police units, the scope is limited. If (I don't know, nor the scale of it; but neither seem you) more of such equipment is used, "militarization" certainly would seem appropriate term for it.
niklasd 8y ago
I feel that civil rights are still strong and well respected and generally these things shouldn't happen – so that perceptions is still accurate. Maybe not that much in Bavaria, but natinolly still, yes. About the more technical legal question: I think – as some other commenter pointed out – the legal basis for the search should be the same. The searches themselves should be governed by the respective police law – in other states the police would be a little more restricted in how to handle the searches.

germanier 8y ago

The basics of house searches are regulated in federal law. Criminal law itself is federal only (i.e. everything that is a crime in Bavaria is also one in Berlin). In a criminal investigation any German judge can order a search wherever they seem fit. The police responsible for that place is then required to execute the search. The details of the search are regulated in state law which the police then follows. I can't think of a relevant legal discrepancy that may exist between the laws for ordering searches (there are very tight rules set by the Federal Constitutional Court) but I presume the judge has to take into account the laws where the search takes place. On the other hand my knowledge on criminal investigation law is very rusty.

Tomte 8y ago

I think they do, but I'm not 100% certain. I don't know how far you want to define "police state", but in general, SWATting won't be terribly successful here, the only police units with near-military equipment are special units like the GSG9, and while there's certainly racism, and also at least one probable murder (Oury Jalloh), our police doesn't regurlarly murder minorities. If you limit it to surveillance etc., you will find better countries.

keldaris 8y ago
The militarization of police is largely a U.S. problem among first world countries. As a practical matter I'm more concerned about things like investigations with poor judicial oversight, poorly justified police searches, warrantless or rubber stamped surveillance, frivolous information requests, general lack of respect for privacy rights, etc. France, for instance, unfortunately seems to have moved quite a bit in that direction after the terrorist attacks of recent years. I've not heard of a similar trend in Germany, but it's always nice to hear an informed perspective from people who actually live there.
- _ak 8y ago
  Militarization of police is happening in Germany, as well: * Police special forces (SEK which are organized on the state level unlike GSG9 which are state police) have switched from blue to military-like green/brown uniforms (which have no tactical value, but that's another discussion). * Police in e.g. Berlin are changing their fully automatic weapons by phasing out the 9mm MP-5 and replacing it with 5.56x45 G36 assault rifles for "anti-terror defense" purposes. * More and more police units are equipped with armored wheeled tanks. * Peaceful left-wing demonstrations in some states are regularly "secured" by special forces equipped with tactical equipment including assault rifles, a clear intimidation tactic. SEK units aren't even being trained to handle demos. * Crime statistics are recorded in bizarre ways to artificially inflate anti-police violence, which in turn forms the basis for police unions to demand stricter laws. For example, any attack on a single police man is counted as an attack against their whole unit, and suddenly one victim becomes 10 victims in the statistics.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    1. The color of the uniform doesn't seem relevant to me. 2. The MP-5 is just as "military" as the G36. 3. I doubt that. Yes, there are water throwers that are highly armored, but that's nothing new, nor bad. 4. That sounds just a little biased. 5. That sounds not true. Certainly you should post sources for that extraordinary claim.
    - vsl 8y ago
      > 2. The MP-5 is just as "military" as the G36. What the grandparent meant, I'd think, is the difference in the round. H&K MP5 uses 9mm Luger, pistol ammunition with significantly lower energy, range and penetration than 5.56x45mm NATO. One of those is suitable for police work too, one is only suitable for military or hunting. This matters in urban areas, in police work, in use by inexperienced shooters (pretty much any policeman except for specialized units by definition, unless they train in their spare time, which is… somewhat difficult in Germany). 5.56x45 absolutely is "military" and equipping 5.56x45 riffles to regular police units doing patrol duty in cities absolutely is "militarization". > 3. I doubt that. Yes, there are water throwers that are highly armored, but that's nothing new, nor bad. The emphasis of that statement was on "more". While such hardware is sometimes needed, and so are "militarized" police units, the scope is limited. If (I don't know, nor the scale of it; but neither seem you) more of such equipment is used, "militarization" certainly would seem appropriate term for it.

niklasd 8y ago

I feel that civil rights are still strong and well respected and generally these things shouldn't happen – so that perceptions is still accurate. Maybe not that much in Bavaria, but natinolly still, yes. About the more technical legal question: I think – as some other commenter pointed out – the legal basis for the search should be the same. The searches themselves should be governed by the respective police law – in other states the police would be a little more restricted in how to handle the searches.