6 ms·

A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which

A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration). Just recently this party introduced a new police law in Bavaria which is considered to be the toughest in Germany, making it considerably more easy for Police to read your mail, block your bank account, to surveil you etc. While this is not directly related to the CCC raid, the raid was ordered by the Munich Attorney General. For Germans, it is not surprising that such an act comes from the Bavarian justice system.

_ak 8y ago
The. CSU. Is. Not. Conservative. Call them what they are: a right-wing populist law-and-order party that is only active in the state of Bavaria, but terrorises the rest of Germany with their reactionary and regressive policies.
Tomte 8y ago
And Munich is traditionally governed by the center-left SPD. I find your attempt to inject party politics in this a diversion. Just because the state government is well to the right and turning populist, it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.
- PythonicAlpha 8y ago
  > it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same. In theory. In practice, many entities which work even in judiciary are influenced by party politics. The current 2nd mayor of Munich is from the CSU -- so the winds have changed. The CSU is (since the last election) much more important than before and it seems that the SPD is massively weakened in Munich. This is also the reason for throwing out Linux It systems of Munich.
- fcDVb7R6 8y ago
  Aha then it must be more of a german way of checking out what these left leaning privacy organizations up to
  - kaybe 8y ago
    They should just send an undercover guy to pretend to be their friend like usual.. at least that's not as disruptive.
- TomTomXC 8y ago
  In germany the ministry of justice (state, not city) is authorized to give orders to the prosecutors, allowing for a very direct influence of party politics onto the judiciary system.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    That's correct, but it happens extremely rarely (the well-publicized! incident with netzpolitik.org and the Mollath case are the only ones that comes immediately to mind) and leads to massive criticism in the press.
- tobltobs 8y ago
  > it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same. Try to tell this a Bavarian pothead.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    Not following your political wishes doesn't make a judiciary dependent of politicians.
keldaris 8y ago
I understand some of the searches took place outside of Bavaria, though (Berlin, etc.)? How does the German legal system work in this case, does police in other German states automatically cooperate with requests from Bavaria even when there's potentially a discrepancy between the laws used to provide the legal justification for the actions in question? I've seen a general sentiment in HN and other tech circles over the years that Germany is much less of a police state than the U.S. or the UK, for instance, and generally has greater respect for privacy and other rights many of us care about. Do you feel that perception is still broadly accurate?
- germanier 8y ago
  The basics of house searches are regulated in federal law. Criminal law itself is federal only (i.e. everything that is a crime in Bavaria is also one in Berlin). In a criminal investigation any German judge can order a search wherever they seem fit. The police responsible for that place is then required to execute the search. The details of the search are regulated in state law which the police then follows. I can't think of a relevant legal discrepancy that may exist between the laws for ordering searches (there are very tight rules set by the Federal Constitutional Court) but I presume the judge has to take into account the laws where the search takes place. On the other hand my knowledge on criminal investigation law is very rusty.
- Tomte 8y ago
  I think they do, but I'm not 100% certain. I don't know how far you want to define "police state", but in general, SWATting won't be terribly successful here, the only police units with near-military equipment are special units like the GSG9, and while there's certainly racism, and also at least one probable murder (Oury Jalloh), our police doesn't regurlarly murder minorities. If you limit it to surveillance etc., you will find better countries.
  - keldaris 8y ago
    The militarization of police is largely a U.S. problem among first world countries. As a practical matter I'm more concerned about things like investigations with poor judicial oversight, poorly justified police searches, warrantless or rubber stamped surveillance, frivolous information requests, general lack of respect for privacy rights, etc. France, for instance, unfortunately seems to have moved quite a bit in that direction after the terrorist attacks of recent years. I've not heard of a similar trend in Germany, but it's always nice to hear an informed perspective from people who actually live there.
fcDVb7R6 8y ago
If i remember they had gestapo during Nazi era .... bavaria => right (ahem conservative) => Worst Case => Nazi
- sctb 8y ago
  If you won't comment civilly and substantively we'll ban the account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
twistypencil 8y ago
They also recently passed a law that allows the police to indefinitely detain you. Also the prosecutor there has a long history of scandals accumulating on their wikipedia page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsanwaltschaft_Augsburg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsanwaltschaft_Augsburg
- chopin 8y ago
  This law is unconstitutional very likely. As being relatively new, it hasn't been challenged yet. Afaik several organizations have already set up a complaint with the German constitutional court (Bundesverfassungsgericht).
- rurban 8y ago
  That's the reason why there's an ongoing travel warning to the state of Bavaria. https://www.lawblog.de/index.php/archives/2017/07/20/bayern-endloshaft-fuer-nicht-straftaeter/ https://www.lawblog.de/index.php/archives/2017/07/20/bayern-... But now that some other german states took over the unconstitutional interpretation of federal law from Bavarian judges it became a state issue. There should be some oversight, when judges and police plot against constitutional rights.
  - tscs37 8y ago
    That's not an official travel warning. It's just a blogpost where the title contains "Travel warning"
    - rurban 8y ago
      It's an experts travel warning. Other experts travel warnings to Bavaria are for pregnant women, because they will have a hard time to find someone to deliver the baby. There's critical shortage.
      - tscs37 8y ago
        Travel warnings can only be issued by a government agency. Same goes for travel alerts and advisories. Calling this a travel warning is simply wrong.

_ak 8y ago

The. CSU. Is. Not. Conservative. Call them what they are: a right-wing populist law-and-order party that is only active in the state of Bavaria, but terrorises the rest of Germany with their reactionary and regressive policies.

Tomte 8y ago

And Munich is traditionally governed by the center-left SPD. I find your attempt to inject party politics in this a diversion. Just because the state government is well to the right and turning populist, it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.

PythonicAlpha 8y ago
> it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same. In theory. In practice, many entities which work even in judiciary are influenced by party politics. The current 2nd mayor of Munich is from the CSU -- so the winds have changed. The CSU is (since the last election) much more important than before and it seems that the SPD is massively weakened in Munich. This is also the reason for throwing out Linux It systems of Munich.
fcDVb7R6 8y ago
Aha then it must be more of a german way of checking out what these left leaning privacy organizations up to
- kaybe 8y ago
  They should just send an undercover guy to pretend to be their friend like usual.. at least that's not as disruptive.
TomTomXC 8y ago
In germany the ministry of justice (state, not city) is authorized to give orders to the prosecutors, allowing for a very direct influence of party politics onto the judiciary system.
- Tomte 8y ago
  That's correct, but it happens extremely rarely (the well-publicized! incident with netzpolitik.org and the Mollath case are the only ones that comes immediately to mind) and leads to massive criticism in the press.
tobltobs 8y ago
> it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same. Try to tell this a Bavarian pothead.
- Tomte 8y ago
  Not following your political wishes doesn't make a judiciary dependent of politicians.

keldaris 8y ago

I understand some of the searches took place outside of Bavaria, though (Berlin, etc.)? How does the German legal system work in this case, does police in other German states automatically cooperate with requests from Bavaria even when there's potentially a discrepancy between the laws used to provide the legal justification for the actions in question? I've seen a general sentiment in HN and other tech circles over the years that Germany is much less of a police state than the U.S. or the UK, for instance, and generally has greater respect for privacy and other rights many of us care about. Do you feel that perception is still broadly accurate?

germanier 8y ago
The basics of house searches are regulated in federal law. Criminal law itself is federal only (i.e. everything that is a crime in Bavaria is also one in Berlin). In a criminal investigation any German judge can order a search wherever they seem fit. The police responsible for that place is then required to execute the search. The details of the search are regulated in state law which the police then follows. I can't think of a relevant legal discrepancy that may exist between the laws for ordering searches (there are very tight rules set by the Federal Constitutional Court) but I presume the judge has to take into account the laws where the search takes place. On the other hand my knowledge on criminal investigation law is very rusty.
Tomte 8y ago
I think they do, but I'm not 100% certain. I don't know how far you want to define "police state", but in general, SWATting won't be terribly successful here, the only police units with near-military equipment are special units like the GSG9, and while there's certainly racism, and also at least one probable murder (Oury Jalloh), our police doesn't regurlarly murder minorities. If you limit it to surveillance etc., you will find better countries.
- keldaris 8y ago
  The militarization of police is largely a U.S. problem among first world countries. As a practical matter I'm more concerned about things like investigations with poor judicial oversight, poorly justified police searches, warrantless or rubber stamped surveillance, frivolous information requests, general lack of respect for privacy rights, etc. France, for instance, unfortunately seems to have moved quite a bit in that direction after the terrorist attacks of recent years. I've not heard of a similar trend in Germany, but it's always nice to hear an informed perspective from people who actually live there.

fcDVb7R6 8y ago

If i remember they had gestapo during Nazi era .... bavaria => right (ahem conservative) => Worst Case => Nazi

sctb 8y ago
If you won't comment civilly and substantively we'll ban the account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

twistypencil 8y ago

They also recently passed a law that allows the police to indefinitely detain you. Also the prosecutor there has a long history of scandals accumulating on their wikipedia page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsanwaltschaft_Augsburg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsanwaltschaft_Augsburg

chopin 8y ago
This law is unconstitutional very likely. As being relatively new, it hasn't been challenged yet. Afaik several organizations have already set up a complaint with the German constitutional court (Bundesverfassungsgericht).
rurban 8y ago
That's the reason why there's an ongoing travel warning to the state of Bavaria. https://www.lawblog.de/index.php/archives/2017/07/20/bayern-endloshaft-fuer-nicht-straftaeter/ https://www.lawblog.de/index.php/archives/2017/07/20/bayern-... But now that some other german states took over the unconstitutional interpretation of federal law from Bavarian judges it became a state issue. There should be some oversight, when judges and police plot against constitutional rights.
- tscs37 8y ago
  That's not an official travel warning. It's just a blogpost where the title contains "Travel warning"
  - rurban 8y ago
    It's an experts travel warning. Other experts travel warnings to Bavaria are for pregnant women, because they will have a hard time to find someone to deliver the baby. There's critical shortage.
    - tscs37 8y ago
      Travel warnings can only be issued by a government agency. Same goes for travel alerts and advisories. Calling this a travel warning is simply wrong.