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It's always easy to tell someone they have it good when we all live on a power law. Just tell them to look a notch down and see someone half their height, just

It's always easy to tell someone they have it good when we all live on a power law. Just tell them to look a notch down and see someone half their height, just as long as they don't look up at you and see your waist. The entire structure of the American economy and the attitudes it uses to keep its subjects in check are of this form. In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe. In other ways it's better. I think if you take an every day liberal or social justice advocate, you'll find that they may be surprised at the level of racism and sexism that pervades other countries, specifically in Asia. But, I don't think you'll find that attitude from activists, academics and others who try to be informed about these things. They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.

zavi 8y ago
A premise that there's less racism in Europe than in the US is just wrong (I'm a European who've spent a lot of time in the US for work and school). US is the PC capital of the world (for better or worse). There's just not a whole lot of non-white folks in Europe even now.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  You seem to have a better perspective on this than me, but isn't it also a question of how much people talk about race issues in the US vs. Europe? To me it seems like a bit of a mixed bag: * US Americans are generally very sensitive to the issue and try to be PC as much as possible. * Europeans are rather insensitive to it, which shows in two ways: A lot of people seem to be more color-blind, which IMO is the upside, and a smaller but very visible bunch of people are more openly racist. * This also applies to public discussions - the skin color of immigrants or inhabitants is rarely mentioned, people and the media rather just differentiate between natives, people with immigration background and immigrants - here in Switzerland maybe with special mentioning of Germans, French and Italians, as those three originating countries tend to be the most prevalent. Thus, it seems much less a race-, than a nationality issue. * On the topic of numbers, I gotta say I think it depends. Here in Switzerland roughtly 30% of inhabitants don't hold Swiss nationality, tendency rising rather quickly. Of those, roughly half come from neighboring countries (i.e. culturally close), the other half is mostly from Ex-Yugoslavia, Middle East and Northern/Central Africa. Switzerland today seems much more like a melting pot than it was a decade ago, which is something I actually appreciate (I married an Asian immigrant myself and my son has two nationalities, which is actually a majority phenomenon in the whole greater Zurich area now).
  - 87 8y ago
    Your description is very accurate. But to me it's exactly why Europe is more racist or inegalitarian. > differentiate between natives, people with immigration background and immigrants Yes, in a racist/othering manner. Sure, in the US you might hear about someone being an immigrant or being born to an immigrant family. But this is almost universally mentioned as a positive reflecting ones Americanness. With illegal immigrants being the only notable exception. In Europe it's often the other way around. This "it's not about race, it's about nationality/whatever" gambit is exactly how Europeans fool themselves into believing there isn't a problem. It's not about the word, it's about treating people badly for who they are.
    - m_mueller 8y ago
      I agree very much with you, we should head towards a society where the origin of people, their skin tone, gender and sexuality doesn't matter at all, at least in public life, jobs and home search. I just want to add that US and Europe seem to be on different paths and I'm not entirely sure that one is ahead of the other. To me the problems in the US in that regard seem more systemic (e.g. low social mobility), while the ones in Europe seem more personal, comparatively, although with greater regional/national variability. Intuitively I think that PC culture is not helping - it's like paving over social problems instead of letting them go their natural course until a culture has finally absorbed an immigration wave. Heavy handed government- or corporate regulations often seem to have adverse effects. Although saying that, I do have a picture on how heavy regulation could work better - have more stuff selected blindly. And I do mean blind - no names, no voices, instead you get assigned a case ID (from government?) and you communicate through secure chat, until an offer is either accepted or rejected from any party. That could at least meet discrimination at the initial selection process - of course you still have adverse networking effects leading to lots of jobs not being offered public anymore and the subsequent workplace discrimination issues - these are harder nuts to crack. But the way e.g. job applications in the US are handled is an incomplete shield, it should be either all-in blind or just open to 'cultural fit' questions from start IMO.
- vetinari 8y ago
  I guess you haven't been to UK or France recently ;) Being PC doesn't mean not being racist. They will keep their thoughts to themselves and will not let you know directly. But behind your back, oh boy...
  - noobermin 8y ago
    To be fair, that's a common thing in the US too, it's just people can't be overt about it.
    - devonkim 8y ago
      You mean “until recently” right? People have stopped even using “I’m not racist but...” when that was much more common a few years or so back. The political climate and subtle language has changed everywhere. It’s tough to notice as a white person but if you’re in the South and aren’t white the differences are obvious even once you go into suburbs.
  - zavi 8y ago
    I'm literally in France now. I hear people talking trash about 'brown' refugees on a daily basis here in Paris. I've probably heard something similar once or twice in my 8 years in the US, mostly coming from mentally unstable people like the ones you see in the streets in San Francisco. TBH UK is a lot more sensitive than the mainland Europe (there's a lot more immigrants in London too). Anecdotal, of course, but that has consistently been my impression.
- noobermin 8y ago
  Actually, regarding racism, I don't think Europe is better, at least generally, that is one of the ways the U.S. is better, although it still has room to grow. Of course, the U.S. has other issues (an increasingly violent police force as well as income inequality) which makes the effects that stem from racial discrimination worse than they would elsewhere, although that's just my take.
icelancer 8y ago
>> They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society. I highly doubt that Japan will ever become as "socially aware" as the United States is currently, which is not really that much, if we're being honest. These countries are already very developed and have strong near-monocultures in them, and a pasttime for both Chinese and Japanese people is to make fun of Americans for being "soft" or giving a shit about social justice. If you adjust your timeline to hundreds of years, maybe. But I really don't think a wave of social justice is likely to happen in those countries at the rate it is happening in the United States.
- noobermin 8y ago
  Actually many decades to 100 years is what I mean.
HeadsUpHigh 8y ago
>In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe. There is an equal or higher amount of racism in Europe. We may not have as much of the american black type but the cultural and ethnic divide with so many countries as well as the centuries of history has created a very complex situation. Eastern Europe is particularly bad with antisemitism for example. Southern Europe( e.g. Greece) has seen a big rise in fascism( the "hate all outsiders" type). I know immigrants who died in Germany by neo-nazi attacks. The list goes on and on...

zavi 8y ago

A premise that there's less racism in Europe than in the US is just wrong (I'm a European who've spent a lot of time in the US for work and school). US is the PC capital of the world (for better or worse). There's just not a whole lot of non-white folks in Europe even now.

m_mueller 8y ago
You seem to have a better perspective on this than me, but isn't it also a question of how much people talk about race issues in the US vs. Europe? To me it seems like a bit of a mixed bag: * US Americans are generally very sensitive to the issue and try to be PC as much as possible. * Europeans are rather insensitive to it, which shows in two ways: A lot of people seem to be more color-blind, which IMO is the upside, and a smaller but very visible bunch of people are more openly racist. * This also applies to public discussions - the skin color of immigrants or inhabitants is rarely mentioned, people and the media rather just differentiate between natives, people with immigration background and immigrants - here in Switzerland maybe with special mentioning of Germans, French and Italians, as those three originating countries tend to be the most prevalent. Thus, it seems much less a race-, than a nationality issue. * On the topic of numbers, I gotta say I think it depends. Here in Switzerland roughtly 30% of inhabitants don't hold Swiss nationality, tendency rising rather quickly. Of those, roughly half come from neighboring countries (i.e. culturally close), the other half is mostly from Ex-Yugoslavia, Middle East and Northern/Central Africa. Switzerland today seems much more like a melting pot than it was a decade ago, which is something I actually appreciate (I married an Asian immigrant myself and my son has two nationalities, which is actually a majority phenomenon in the whole greater Zurich area now).
- 87 8y ago
  Your description is very accurate. But to me it's exactly why Europe is more racist or inegalitarian. > differentiate between natives, people with immigration background and immigrants Yes, in a racist/othering manner. Sure, in the US you might hear about someone being an immigrant or being born to an immigrant family. But this is almost universally mentioned as a positive reflecting ones Americanness. With illegal immigrants being the only notable exception. In Europe it's often the other way around. This "it's not about race, it's about nationality/whatever" gambit is exactly how Europeans fool themselves into believing there isn't a problem. It's not about the word, it's about treating people badly for who they are.
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    I agree very much with you, we should head towards a society where the origin of people, their skin tone, gender and sexuality doesn't matter at all, at least in public life, jobs and home search. I just want to add that US and Europe seem to be on different paths and I'm not entirely sure that one is ahead of the other. To me the problems in the US in that regard seem more systemic (e.g. low social mobility), while the ones in Europe seem more personal, comparatively, although with greater regional/national variability. Intuitively I think that PC culture is not helping - it's like paving over social problems instead of letting them go their natural course until a culture has finally absorbed an immigration wave. Heavy handed government- or corporate regulations often seem to have adverse effects. Although saying that, I do have a picture on how heavy regulation could work better - have more stuff selected blindly. And I do mean blind - no names, no voices, instead you get assigned a case ID (from government?) and you communicate through secure chat, until an offer is either accepted or rejected from any party. That could at least meet discrimination at the initial selection process - of course you still have adverse networking effects leading to lots of jobs not being offered public anymore and the subsequent workplace discrimination issues - these are harder nuts to crack. But the way e.g. job applications in the US are handled is an incomplete shield, it should be either all-in blind or just open to 'cultural fit' questions from start IMO.
vetinari 8y ago
I guess you haven't been to UK or France recently ;) Being PC doesn't mean not being racist. They will keep their thoughts to themselves and will not let you know directly. But behind your back, oh boy...
- noobermin 8y ago
  To be fair, that's a common thing in the US too, it's just people can't be overt about it.
  - devonkim 8y ago
    You mean “until recently” right? People have stopped even using “I’m not racist but...” when that was much more common a few years or so back. The political climate and subtle language has changed everywhere. It’s tough to notice as a white person but if you’re in the South and aren’t white the differences are obvious even once you go into suburbs.
- zavi 8y ago
  I'm literally in France now. I hear people talking trash about 'brown' refugees on a daily basis here in Paris. I've probably heard something similar once or twice in my 8 years in the US, mostly coming from mentally unstable people like the ones you see in the streets in San Francisco. TBH UK is a lot more sensitive than the mainland Europe (there's a lot more immigrants in London too). Anecdotal, of course, but that has consistently been my impression.
noobermin 8y ago
Actually, regarding racism, I don't think Europe is better, at least generally, that is one of the ways the U.S. is better, although it still has room to grow. Of course, the U.S. has other issues (an increasingly violent police force as well as income inequality) which makes the effects that stem from racial discrimination worse than they would elsewhere, although that's just my take.

icelancer 8y ago

>> They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society. I highly doubt that Japan will ever become as "socially aware" as the United States is currently, which is not really that much, if we're being honest. These countries are already very developed and have strong near-monocultures in them, and a pasttime for both Chinese and Japanese people is to make fun of Americans for being "soft" or giving a shit about social justice. If you adjust your timeline to hundreds of years, maybe. But I really don't think a wave of social justice is likely to happen in those countries at the rate it is happening in the United States.

noobermin 8y ago
Actually many decades to 100 years is what I mean.

HeadsUpHigh 8y ago

>In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe. There is an equal or higher amount of racism in Europe. We may not have as much of the american black type but the cultural and ethnic divide with so many countries as well as the centuries of history has created a very complex situation. Eastern Europe is particularly bad with antisemitism for example. Southern Europe( e.g. Greece) has seen a big rise in fascism( the "hate all outsiders" type). I know immigrants who died in Germany by neo-nazi attacks. The list goes on and on...