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I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I believe Koreans and Japanese do this to a certain degree as well as certain other East Asian groups. I've heard Russia

I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I believe Koreans and Japanese do this to a certain degree as well as certain other East Asian groups. I've heard Russians do bathhouse deals as well although I could be wrong and there is also the finance sector's strip club visits with their clientele that I've heard of (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-closing-time-for-toronto-s-strip-clubs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-clos...). It seems so weird to see people have to do things just to do business deals/sales all over and I'm curious as to even why. What advantage does it hold over normal sales?

woolvalley 8y ago
Social bonding gone inappropriate. You like to buy from a (pseudo)friend more than a stranger. You've heard about the entire 'wining and dining' part of sales correct?
dm3730 8y ago
> I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. The practice of colonialist generals/warlords, typically of a naval background of using brothels as a place/culture to bond with other warlords/generals and their local puppets is the predecessor of the current "elite level" business culture observed in these former colonies. For a more contemporary example, Thailand did not have this sexpot/sex tourist city reputation until after the Vietnam War. It was the exploitation of Thai beach resorts and cities as RnR locations for US soldiers that created the current conditions.
- 55555 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's always been very normal in Thai society. The sex tourism, at least for westerners, started with the RnR stuff, as the story goes, but Huai Kwang is 98% Thai clients and probably 30X+ the size of any of the more visible Bangkok "sex tourism spots" (patpong, nana, cowboy). 97%+ of the sex being paid for in Thailand is being paid for by Thai people. The main thing that changed due to foreign influence was Thai people letting the sex workers spill into the streets instead of working more discretely.
  - linuxkerneldev 8y ago
    > I'm pretty sure it's always been very normal in Thai society. It is unclear which "it's" you are referring to. Group sex dealmaking or using group sex for bonding business partners as per the original article? I don't think that is normal in Thailand or any Asian society for that matter. As for the history of prostitution in Thailand. That's a well covered subject. You're points are somewhat accurate but OP's point appears to be different than what you are addressing. I thought he/she was implying that the Vietnam war had overarching societal and economic consequences, one of which was the availability of vulnerable exploitable migrant and rural women in Thai cities. https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prostitution-and-sex-trafficking-in-thailand https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prost... The location of Thailand plays a key role in the success of the sex trafficking industry. It is close to war-torn Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. China and Vietnam are also nearby. Various waterways along with porous borders also facilitate trafficking. If the point that was being made was that the Vietnam war had huge side effects, including enabling horrific sex trafficking and exploitation, then yes, I would agree.
    - 55555 8y ago
      > It is unclear which "it's" you are referring to Sorry, I just meant the sexual service industry in general. > The location of Thailand plays a key role in the success of the sex trafficking industry. It is close to war-torn Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. China and Vietnam are also nearby. Various waterways along with porous borders also facilitate trafficking. I know lol, I live here and have travelled to all of those countries dozens of times. Regardless of whatever you have read, 99% of the prostitutes are Thai women and are working by their own choice, at least as much as any bricklayer or garbageman in Ameria has chosen their line of work. Any other nationalities should be a footnote. > https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prost.. https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prost.... I'm sorry but this article is silly. "Trafficking" and "Slavery" in this case are ideologically-loaded euphemisms. There is the sex industry and there is economic (and often illegal) migration. There isn't really a super unique and exploitative sex trafficking industry. I have never seen a large movement by the Thai middle class to fight "sex trafficking." That's not because Thai people are evil or ignorant, it's just because it's not a big problem that really exists. No one is going to risk enslaving women for sex work when (a) there is a surplus of women perfectly willing to do the job without being enslaved and (b) normal men don't get off on the thought of having sex with slaves. There is no sex slavery epidemic in Thailand.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. No. There were brothels somewhere in Asia, basically forever. Rough men have made deals in and around them, basically forever.
  - dm3730 8y ago
    > No. There were brothels somewhere in Asia, basically forever. I believe you're intentionally misconstruing my argument. It would be ridiculous to claim that Europeans invented brothels in Asia. What I am pointing out, which is well supported by historical evidence, is that European colonialism, resource extraction culture, such as the encomienda system in the Americas created the political and socio-economic structures that are the dominant structures behind the sex trafficking and "sexual activity based dealmaking" that is discussed in the article. For example, impoverished indigenous Americans like the Mayas/mestizo are used as sex exploits/rites of passage/sex maids by the modern teenage descendants of Spanish conquistadors who treat it as a bonding experience. Much like how frats have group sex acts with women from impoverished backgrounds (or minorities) as part of their hazing/bonding rituals.
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      Very interesting. Could you point to any reading (hopefully online)?
      - dm3730 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sexual_slavery_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sexual_slavery_in_t... http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1515 http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1515
jackvalentine 8y ago
> What advantage does it hold over normal sales? Same reason as gangs requiring a new initiate to kill someone. If you have someone expose themselves doing something taboo and you yourself do it too, then a mutual bond is built. The article says as much.
- drollcrops 8y ago
  It's far more simple than that. Many men absolutely love sex with new women. Humans are heavily social, and moral boundaries are strongly influenced by those that surround them. It is much easier to break certain moral boundaries when those around you also break them, and this gives men an opportunity to fulfill their desires.
  - sewer_bird 8y ago
    It can be both. The article says there's the idea of sussing out that the different businessmen are "the same kind of person" with similar 'desires'. That's why the article mentions cases of men trying to signal wanting to have wanton sex, but actually going to lengths to not engage in it.
stcredzero 8y ago
I see this as an East Asian phenomenon Heck no! There was plenty of dealmaking which was "celebrated" afterwards at Houston strip joints up through the 00's. (EDIT: I had one coworker who had a kind of perverse "nationalistic" Texan pride around the notion of things like "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" and actual whorehouses.)
tetromino_ 8y ago
Russians do bathhouse/sauna deals without sex (most of the time). In Russian culture, bathhouses/saunas are a very traditional safe place for a group of same-sex friends to socialize and get drunk together. And naturally a lot of unofficial political and business discussion happens in saunas too.
- Torminguar 8y ago
  Same here in Finland, although it is mostly a joke that has some corruption undertones. But it still happens.
- fpoling 8y ago
  And after a proper session in a Russian-style sauna one is totally exhausted to even think about sex. Surely there are stories about businesses booking saunas for private events with hookers to bribe officials, but in most cases these are urban legends.
shanghaiaway 8y ago
I've heard Americans go to strip clubs
- jmngomes 8y ago
  Much in the same way as europeans. It's a universal behaviour, hardly specific to asia...
xmrsilentx 8y ago
It's an ancient custom of mutual imprecation.

woolvalley 8y ago

Social bonding gone inappropriate. You like to buy from a (pseudo)friend more than a stranger. You've heard about the entire 'wining and dining' part of sales correct?

dm3730 8y ago

> I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. The practice of colonialist generals/warlords, typically of a naval background of using brothels as a place/culture to bond with other warlords/generals and their local puppets is the predecessor of the current "elite level" business culture observed in these former colonies. For a more contemporary example, Thailand did not have this sexpot/sex tourist city reputation until after the Vietnam War. It was the exploitation of Thai beach resorts and cities as RnR locations for US soldiers that created the current conditions.

55555 8y ago
I'm pretty sure it's always been very normal in Thai society. The sex tourism, at least for westerners, started with the RnR stuff, as the story goes, but Huai Kwang is 98% Thai clients and probably 30X+ the size of any of the more visible Bangkok "sex tourism spots" (patpong, nana, cowboy). 97%+ of the sex being paid for in Thailand is being paid for by Thai people. The main thing that changed due to foreign influence was Thai people letting the sex workers spill into the streets instead of working more discretely.
- linuxkerneldev 8y ago
  > I'm pretty sure it's always been very normal in Thai society. It is unclear which "it's" you are referring to. Group sex dealmaking or using group sex for bonding business partners as per the original article? I don't think that is normal in Thailand or any Asian society for that matter. As for the history of prostitution in Thailand. That's a well covered subject. You're points are somewhat accurate but OP's point appears to be different than what you are addressing. I thought he/she was implying that the Vietnam war had overarching societal and economic consequences, one of which was the availability of vulnerable exploitable migrant and rural women in Thai cities. https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prostitution-and-sex-trafficking-in-thailand https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prost... The location of Thailand plays a key role in the success of the sex trafficking industry. It is close to war-torn Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. China and Vietnam are also nearby. Various waterways along with porous borders also facilitate trafficking. If the point that was being made was that the Vietnam war had huge side effects, including enabling horrific sex trafficking and exploitation, then yes, I would agree.
  - 55555 8y ago
    > It is unclear which "it's" you are referring to Sorry, I just meant the sexual service industry in general. > The location of Thailand plays a key role in the success of the sex trafficking industry. It is close to war-torn Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. China and Vietnam are also nearby. Various waterways along with porous borders also facilitate trafficking. I know lol, I live here and have travelled to all of those countries dozens of times. Regardless of whatever you have read, 99% of the prostitutes are Thai women and are working by their own choice, at least as much as any bricklayer or garbageman in Ameria has chosen their line of work. Any other nationalities should be a footnote. > https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prost.. https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/history-of-prost.... I'm sorry but this article is silly. "Trafficking" and "Slavery" in this case are ideologically-loaded euphemisms. There is the sex industry and there is economic (and often illegal) migration. There isn't really a super unique and exploitative sex trafficking industry. I have never seen a large movement by the Thai middle class to fight "sex trafficking." That's not because Thai people are evil or ignorant, it's just because it's not a big problem that really exists. No one is going to risk enslaving women for sex work when (a) there is a surplus of women perfectly willing to do the job without being enslaved and (b) normal men don't get off on the thought of having sex with slaves. There is no sex slavery epidemic in Thailand.
stcredzero 8y ago
I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. No. There were brothels somewhere in Asia, basically forever. Rough men have made deals in and around them, basically forever.
- dm3730 8y ago
  > No. There were brothels somewhere in Asia, basically forever. I believe you're intentionally misconstruing my argument. It would be ridiculous to claim that Europeans invented brothels in Asia. What I am pointing out, which is well supported by historical evidence, is that European colonialism, resource extraction culture, such as the encomienda system in the Americas created the political and socio-economic structures that are the dominant structures behind the sex trafficking and "sexual activity based dealmaking" that is discussed in the article. For example, impoverished indigenous Americans like the Mayas/mestizo are used as sex exploits/rites of passage/sex maids by the modern teenage descendants of Spanish conquistadors who treat it as a bonding experience. Much like how frats have group sex acts with women from impoverished backgrounds (or minorities) as part of their hazing/bonding rituals.
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    Very interesting. Could you point to any reading (hopefully online)?
    - dm3730 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sexual_slavery_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sexual_slavery_in_t... http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1515 http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1515

jackvalentine 8y ago

> What advantage does it hold over normal sales? Same reason as gangs requiring a new initiate to kill someone. If you have someone expose themselves doing something taboo and you yourself do it too, then a mutual bond is built. The article says as much.

drollcrops 8y ago
It's far more simple than that. Many men absolutely love sex with new women. Humans are heavily social, and moral boundaries are strongly influenced by those that surround them. It is much easier to break certain moral boundaries when those around you also break them, and this gives men an opportunity to fulfill their desires.
- sewer_bird 8y ago
  It can be both. The article says there's the idea of sussing out that the different businessmen are "the same kind of person" with similar 'desires'. That's why the article mentions cases of men trying to signal wanting to have wanton sex, but actually going to lengths to not engage in it.

stcredzero 8y ago

I see this as an East Asian phenomenon Heck no! There was plenty of dealmaking which was "celebrated" afterwards at Houston strip joints up through the 00's. (EDIT: I had one coworker who had a kind of perverse "nationalistic" Texan pride around the notion of things like "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" and actual whorehouses.)

tetromino_ 8y ago

Russians do bathhouse/sauna deals without sex (most of the time). In Russian culture, bathhouses/saunas are a very traditional safe place for a group of same-sex friends to socialize and get drunk together. And naturally a lot of unofficial political and business discussion happens in saunas too.

Torminguar 8y ago
Same here in Finland, although it is mostly a joke that has some corruption undertones. But it still happens.
fpoling 8y ago
And after a proper session in a Russian-style sauna one is totally exhausted to even think about sex. Surely there are stories about businesses booking saunas for private events with hookers to bribe officials, but in most cases these are urban legends.

shanghaiaway 8y ago

I've heard Americans go to strip clubs

jmngomes 8y ago
Much in the same way as europeans. It's a universal behaviour, hardly specific to asia...

xmrsilentx 8y ago

It's an ancient custom of mutual imprecation.