5 ms·

'All humanity has left the area': paying for Tesla's Gigafactory

39 points by kimsk112 8y ago

dokein 8y ago
It sounds like the article is asserting that tax breaks result in decreased public services per capita, but most of the people interviewed were priced out from a housing perspective. Also, while touching, it is not clear that a few anecdotes is evidence of a town going downhill due to tax cuts; finding 4-5 people to talk about how great or how miserable things are is always possible no matter in which direction ground conditions have actually changed.
- xg15 8y ago
  > Schools in Washoe county, which includes Sparks, are overcrowded and deeply in debt, so much so that voters in 2016 approved a sales tax hike to help plug the gap. Even so, fresh budget cuts could eliminate bus routes for nearly 4,000 elementary and middle school students in an effort to save $550,000.
proee 8y ago
This comes across as a total "hit-piece" against Tesla. In looking closely at the article, it is supported by "The Rockefeller Foundation" , which for those who don't know - is linked to history's biggest oil man. The Rockefeller foundation would like nothing more than to see Tesla fail.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- alistairSH 8y ago
  Does the foundation have a history of being pro-oil? Just because John Rockefeller founded it doesn’t mean the foundation is somehow permanently coupled to the fortunes of big petrochemical companies.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    No but they did had some shady stuff pre-WW2 but so did all US industrial giants. The foundation was founded after the publication of “oil crimes” as a means to restore the Rockefeller family reputation and while it did likely whitewashed a lot of crap it never had any oil related interests.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  You might want to read why the foundation was founded.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jacobwilliamroy 8y ago
  The Rockefeller Brothers fund divested from fossil fuels in 2014. The Rockefeller family fund began a process of divestment from fossil fuels in 2016 [1] starting with an immediate divestment from ExxonMobil for "their morally reprehensible conduct."[1] [1]https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/08/the-rockefeller-family-fund-vs-exxon/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/08/the-rockefeller-... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rockefeller-family-feud-with-exxon-mobil-fossil-fuels-global-warming-climate-change/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rockefeller-family-feud-with-ex...
  - proee 8y ago
    This may be true of the family's fund, but the Rockefeller Foundation, which this article is sponsored by, is opposed. "However, the much wealthier Rockefeller Foundation, whose endowment tops $4bn, is understood to be opposed to divestment for now." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/23/rockefeller-fund-divestment-fossil-fuel-companies-oil-coal-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/23/rockefel...
- burnt-toast 8y ago
  From The Guardian's website https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding "- A grant from the Rockefeller Foundation to support the Guardian’s Cities project" If I were to suggest that the article was written in bad faith, I'd be more willing to link it to Elon's recent agitation of media figures on Twitter. Carroll doesn't seem to have written much of anything about Elon or his projects in the past couple years, but starting in June, he's penned this, and two other articles on the man. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/04/elon-musk-visionary-space-travel-fell-back-down-to-earth https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/04/elon-musk... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/10/a-great-item-to-have-flamethrowers-sell-like-hot-cakes-at-elon-musk-sale https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/10/a-great-i...
- frandroid 8y ago
  The Rockefeller Family Fund and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, two Rockefeller family charities/advocacy orgs, have divested from fossil fuels. I don't know where The Rockefeller Foundation itself (which seems separate from the aforementioned funds) stands on fossil fuels, but I don't think you can assume that because it bears the name Rockefeller that it's out to get Tesla.
  - extralego 8y ago
    Yeah they were probably just bored and decided to do some news and stuff. I love news and stuff when I’m bored.
petermcneeley 8y ago
Tesla is not responsible for the 4 decades long destruction of the american working class.
- draw_down 8y ago
  But let me guess, immigrants are.
- kbenson 8y ago
  This feels like one of those liberally overreaching articles that I'm coming to associate with the Guardian. It may just be me getting more sensitive to it, but as someone that views themselves as a liberally leaning moderate, there's a distinct feeling that both ends of the political spectrum have become steaming dumpster fires in their attempts to push their perspectives. Sure, I think one side is a bigger fire, but that doesn't change the fact that the stink is pervasive and coming both directions. I sincerely hope it's mostly me being over-sensitive, as otherwise it's yet another thing to lament the loss of and fear the future for. :/
aplummer 8y ago
If the article was trying to say that the “low tax low service” government model is terrible for low income people it did it well. Not really related to Tesla.
blacksmith_tb 8y ago
I can see how Tesla's tax credits are a minus for public services, but you'd think the influx of workers would be paying taxes, which should at least have some positive impact.
AdamJacobMuller 8y ago
> tax credits given to Tesla – and to a lesser extent other tech companies – deplete public services, resulting in potholed roads, overcrowded schools and insufficient affordable housing I don't get this. Firstly, aren't most of the taxes they were exempted from at the state level, not the local level? Secondly, don't the new Tesla employees live in the local communities, pay property taxes on their homes (or by proxy via rentals) and shop and pay sales tax at local merchants? Finally, while you can for sure say that the tax breaks mean that Nevada is bringing in less tax revenue than they would have if Tesla had built the gigafactory there with 0 tax incentives, I don't see how they are making the case that there are fewer tax dollars coming in. The one thing I can see is the argument that there are lots of new people living in these communities, and the fact that revenue hasn't increased proportionally is an issue. That seems thin to me as they say Sparks is a community with 100k+ residents and perhaps 1,000 new Tesla/Tesla-adjacent people have moved to the area. A 1% population change should not create a measurable crisis for the public works infrastructure of a city that was already well run. Ultimately, this reads to me as a hit-piece against Tesla with a thin core of truth: Because Tesla moved in the cost of living has been driven up in the form of higher rents (and perhaps other ancillary things, but, mostly rent/housing). Ultimately, this is entirely disconnected from the premise of the article that the tax breaks are to blame and therefore the entire article comes across as completely disingenuous to me.
- jexah 8y ago
  In addition to paying tax, the Tesla employees probably have a relatively high salary and are feeding money directly to the locals through general consumerism.
  - extralego 8y ago
    Maybe a few decades ago, but I don’t think that computes in 2018. The employees raise rent and make locals homeless. Landlords often don’t live in the small towns where they own property these days. The employees buy gas and groceries from corporate outlets and shop online. The locals, desperate for low prices, do the same. Your vision sounds like something my parents would say. I don’t know where you people come from but it sounds incredible.
ajross 8y ago
WTF kind of writing is this: > These days many residents in Sparks – a sunbaked, low-rise city of 100,000 people located 20 miles from the factory – express humbler dreams: food, shelter, health care. Sparks, Nevada is a Reno suburb. The clear implication of the text is that this awful megacorp backed by sneering politicians in the Big City is squeezing The Suffering Rural Poor just to fill their pockets. And the truth is they went to some random restaurant and interviewed a bunch of perfectly normal, very urban Nevadans until they got quotes they liked. The whole article drips with this. Even the core thesis: that the tax breaks were too large (with which I agree!) is completely unsubstantiated. It just asserts without evidence that it's already being felt, which is unlikely. And it even implies that it came alongside infrastructure budget cuts, which I strongly suspect not to be the case. Awful clickbait writing.
qubax 8y ago
Ah, the petty media attack on elon musk continues after elon musk called out the biased media. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/05/25/business/tesla-boss-elon-musk-bashes-media-proposes-credibility-check-gains-vast-twitter-fans/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/05/25/business/tesla-... The atlantic and others already attacked him. Expect the attacks to pick up. It's embarrassing how thin skinned, petty and biased journalists are. I'm not much of a musk fanboy, but it's obvious what these journalists ( if we can really call them that ) are doing. Also what is theguardian, a british newspaper's and other british newspapers' fascination with america? It seems like I read more "news" about america from british newspapers than american newspapers online.
canada_dry 8y ago
> Tesla, meanwhile, has sold $131m in tax credits to casinos thanks to transferable tax credits I'm curious why a company would sell off its tax credits. Present value vs future value, or ? I assume they sell them for a discount, or else why would anyone buy them?
mmt 8y ago
> his annual budget had increased from $65m to $70m in the past two years – about the level of inflation. “So I’m at net zero.” Now there's some creative spin, describing five megabucks as "net zero". Even accepting the premise that the budget needs to be adjusted for inflation (some of which is, after all, increasing costs of such things as land and labor) over such a short time period, that's a rate of nearly 3.8% annually, which strikes me as remarkably high.
koosnel 8y ago
How many tax credits do oil companies get? Why not do an article about that as well.

39 points by kimsk112 8y ago

It sounds like the article is asserting that tax breaks result in decreased public services per capita, but most of the people interviewed were priced out from a housing perspective. Also, while touching, it is not clear that a few anecdotes is evidence of a town going downhill due to tax cuts; finding 4-5 people to talk about how great or how miserable things are is always possible no matter in which direction ground conditions have actually changed.

xg15 8y ago
> Schools in Washoe county, which includes Sparks, are overcrowded and deeply in debt, so much so that voters in 2016 approved a sales tax hike to help plug the gap. Even so, fresh budget cuts could eliminate bus routes for nearly 4,000 elementary and middle school students in an effort to save $550,000.

proee 8y ago

This comes across as a total "hit-piece" against Tesla. In looking closely at the article, it is supported by "The Rockefeller Foundation" , which for those who don't know - is linked to history's biggest oil man. The Rockefeller foundation would like nothing more than to see Tesla fail.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
alistairSH 8y ago
Does the foundation have a history of being pro-oil? Just because John Rockefeller founded it doesn’t mean the foundation is somehow permanently coupled to the fortunes of big petrochemical companies.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  No but they did had some shady stuff pre-WW2 but so did all US industrial giants. The foundation was founded after the publication of “oil crimes” as a means to restore the Rockefeller family reputation and while it did likely whitewashed a lot of crap it never had any oil related interests.
dogma1138 8y ago
You might want to read why the foundation was founded.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jacobwilliamroy 8y ago
The Rockefeller Brothers fund divested from fossil fuels in 2014. The Rockefeller family fund began a process of divestment from fossil fuels in 2016 [1] starting with an immediate divestment from ExxonMobil for "their morally reprehensible conduct."[1] [1]https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/08/the-rockefeller-family-fund-vs-exxon/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/08/the-rockefeller-... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rockefeller-family-feud-with-exxon-mobil-fossil-fuels-global-warming-climate-change/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rockefeller-family-feud-with-ex...
- proee 8y ago
  This may be true of the family's fund, but the Rockefeller Foundation, which this article is sponsored by, is opposed. "However, the much wealthier Rockefeller Foundation, whose endowment tops $4bn, is understood to be opposed to divestment for now." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/23/rockefeller-fund-divestment-fossil-fuel-companies-oil-coal-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/23/rockefel...
burnt-toast 8y ago
From The Guardian's website https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding https://www.theguardian.com/info/2016/jan/25/content-funding "- A grant from the Rockefeller Foundation to support the Guardian’s Cities project" If I were to suggest that the article was written in bad faith, I'd be more willing to link it to Elon's recent agitation of media figures on Twitter. Carroll doesn't seem to have written much of anything about Elon or his projects in the past couple years, but starting in June, he's penned this, and two other articles on the man. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/04/elon-musk-visionary-space-travel-fell-back-down-to-earth https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/04/elon-musk... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/10/a-great-item-to-have-flamethrowers-sell-like-hot-cakes-at-elon-musk-sale https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/10/a-great-i...
frandroid 8y ago
The Rockefeller Family Fund and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, two Rockefeller family charities/advocacy orgs, have divested from fossil fuels. I don't know where The Rockefeller Foundation itself (which seems separate from the aforementioned funds) stands on fossil fuels, but I don't think you can assume that because it bears the name Rockefeller that it's out to get Tesla.
- extralego 8y ago
  Yeah they were probably just bored and decided to do some news and stuff. I love news and stuff when I’m bored.

petermcneeley 8y ago

Tesla is not responsible for the 4 decades long destruction of the american working class.

draw_down 8y ago
But let me guess, immigrants are.
kbenson 8y ago
This feels like one of those liberally overreaching articles that I'm coming to associate with the Guardian. It may just be me getting more sensitive to it, but as someone that views themselves as a liberally leaning moderate, there's a distinct feeling that both ends of the political spectrum have become steaming dumpster fires in their attempts to push their perspectives. Sure, I think one side is a bigger fire, but that doesn't change the fact that the stink is pervasive and coming both directions. I sincerely hope it's mostly me being over-sensitive, as otherwise it's yet another thing to lament the loss of and fear the future for. :/

aplummer 8y ago

If the article was trying to say that the “low tax low service” government model is terrible for low income people it did it well. Not really related to Tesla.

blacksmith_tb 8y ago

I can see how Tesla's tax credits are a minus for public services, but you'd think the influx of workers would be paying taxes, which should at least have some positive impact.

AdamJacobMuller 8y ago

> tax credits given to Tesla – and to a lesser extent other tech companies – deplete public services, resulting in potholed roads, overcrowded schools and insufficient affordable housing I don't get this. Firstly, aren't most of the taxes they were exempted from at the state level, not the local level? Secondly, don't the new Tesla employees live in the local communities, pay property taxes on their homes (or by proxy via rentals) and shop and pay sales tax at local merchants? Finally, while you can for sure say that the tax breaks mean that Nevada is bringing in less tax revenue than they would have if Tesla had built the gigafactory there with 0 tax incentives, I don't see how they are making the case that there are fewer tax dollars coming in. The one thing I can see is the argument that there are lots of new people living in these communities, and the fact that revenue hasn't increased proportionally is an issue. That seems thin to me as they say Sparks is a community with 100k+ residents and perhaps 1,000 new Tesla/Tesla-adjacent people have moved to the area. A 1% population change should not create a measurable crisis for the public works infrastructure of a city that was already well run. Ultimately, this reads to me as a hit-piece against Tesla with a thin core of truth: Because Tesla moved in the cost of living has been driven up in the form of higher rents (and perhaps other ancillary things, but, mostly rent/housing). Ultimately, this is entirely disconnected from the premise of the article that the tax breaks are to blame and therefore the entire article comes across as completely disingenuous to me.

jexah 8y ago
In addition to paying tax, the Tesla employees probably have a relatively high salary and are feeding money directly to the locals through general consumerism.
- extralego 8y ago
  Maybe a few decades ago, but I don’t think that computes in 2018. The employees raise rent and make locals homeless. Landlords often don’t live in the small towns where they own property these days. The employees buy gas and groceries from corporate outlets and shop online. The locals, desperate for low prices, do the same. Your vision sounds like something my parents would say. I don’t know where you people come from but it sounds incredible.

ajross 8y ago

WTF kind of writing is this: > These days many residents in Sparks – a sunbaked, low-rise city of 100,000 people located 20 miles from the factory – express humbler dreams: food, shelter, health care. Sparks, Nevada is a Reno suburb. The clear implication of the text is that this awful megacorp backed by sneering politicians in the Big City is squeezing The Suffering Rural Poor just to fill their pockets. And the truth is they went to some random restaurant and interviewed a bunch of perfectly normal, very urban Nevadans until they got quotes they liked. The whole article drips with this. Even the core thesis: that the tax breaks were too large (with which I agree!) is completely unsubstantiated. It just asserts without evidence that it's already being felt, which is unlikely. And it even implies that it came alongside infrastructure budget cuts, which I strongly suspect not to be the case. Awful clickbait writing.

qubax 8y ago

Ah, the petty media attack on elon musk continues after elon musk called out the biased media. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/05/25/business/tesla-boss-elon-musk-bashes-media-proposes-credibility-check-gains-vast-twitter-fans/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/05/25/business/tesla-... The atlantic and others already attacked him. Expect the attacks to pick up. It's embarrassing how thin skinned, petty and biased journalists are. I'm not much of a musk fanboy, but it's obvious what these journalists ( if we can really call them that ) are doing. Also what is theguardian, a british newspaper's and other british newspapers' fascination with america? It seems like I read more "news" about america from british newspapers than american newspapers online.

canada_dry 8y ago

> Tesla, meanwhile, has sold $131m in tax credits to casinos thanks to transferable tax credits I'm curious why a company would sell off its tax credits. Present value vs future value, or ? I assume they sell them for a discount, or else why would anyone buy them?

mmt 8y ago

> his annual budget had increased from $65m to $70m in the past two years – about the level of inflation. “So I’m at net zero.” Now there's some creative spin, describing five megabucks as "net zero". Even accepting the premise that the budget needs to be adjusted for inflation (some of which is, after all, increasing costs of such things as land and labor) over such a short time period, that's a rate of nearly 3.8% annually, which strikes me as remarkably high.

koosnel 8y ago

How many tax credits do oil companies get? Why not do an article about that as well.