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The title of this article seems to imply that face painting was intentionally used among Juggalos to deter computerized facial recognition - of course we know t

The title of this article seems to imply that face painting was intentionally used among Juggalos to deter computerized facial recognition - of course we know that's not the case. Though to be fair, somewhere in the history of the practice, it may be argued that it was to throw off human face-recognition. This reminds me of a sort of creative look into futuristic fashion I saw a bit ago: https://cvdazzle.com https://cvdazzle.com Where the fashion of the future is made to be expressive while preventing mass surveillance.

tzahola 8y ago
Checked the cvdazzle site. Why do these models - and models on "high fashion" photos in general - look always like they feel deep contempt towards the viewer? Where did this trope come from? What are they trying to suggest? I don't get it.
- cardiffspaceman 8y ago
  > What are they trying to suggest? That smiling pleasantly is hard
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- yellowapple 8y ago
  If I had to pose for a camera while wearing ridiculous-looking clothes and/or makeup, I'd have some pretty deep contempt for everyone involved (including the viewer) as well.
  - the-pigeon 8y ago
    If you are a model then you choose the wrong career path...
    - scotu 8y ago
      not everybody has the luxury of doing what they like in life...
      - jsonne 8y ago
        While that may be true modeling certainly doesn't fall into that category of professions.
        yellowapple 8y ago
        It actually does, and with surprising frequency. Professional models in the high-fashion world often endure considerable amounts of work-related stress, and the decision to do a particular job is often less of an "I like doing this" and more of an "I have to do this to stay relevant / make ends meet / satisfy contract obligations / etc.". Even a seemingly-normal photoshoot can end up being excessively taxing both physically and mentally; the viewer only sees the end result, not the hours of standing around holding poses while the photographers try to get the photo oh so perfect or the hours of wardrobe and makeup prep or the overwhelming pressure to not eat (or - worse - to purge after meals) in order to remain palatable to the mass market and its unrealistic-bordering-on-downright-impossible body image expectations. My original comment was a lame joke, sure, but it's one with a disturbing amount of truth behind it. Not all models like being models. I'd wager that hating the job might even be the norm. It has a high potential to be excessively stressful and even outright degrading, not to mention that it's a hotbed for shady business practices, outright fraud, and abuse (psychological, physical, and sexual alike). It's a career path notorious for its workers having little to no bargaining power. I suspect that the folks voting my comment down don't actually know how shitty of a job modeling can be. I don't blame them for not knowing; on the surface, being a model seems fun and glamorous, right? Never mind that - like how office work is (usually) more than sitting around playing Solitaire all day - professional modeling is (usually) more than just hanging out all day and getting the occasional photo taken real quick (there is no "real quick" to these sorts of photo shoots). Just my two cents.
- aaronbrethorst 8y ago
  http://theconversation.com/why-fashion-models-dont-smile-53658 http://theconversation.com/why-fashion-models-dont-smile-536...
- danharaj 8y ago
  They're trying to have a neutral face so it doesn't distract from what they're modelling.
  - tzahola 8y ago
    But it's not a neutral face. It's a face of disdain and contempt. This is a neutral face: https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/article-inline-half/public/field_blog_entry_images/shutterstock_114522091.jpg?itok=a7EVvRFs https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/a... And this is the face of disdain I'm talking about: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGkhmT2x0fhKItaDSLmrBPiDSaHYt2TccXHGNV4_5aPWpXIsxlZg https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGkhmT...
    - phs318u 8y ago
      I know this is subjective but I just don’t see “disdain and contempt” (which assumes the model is trying to communicate something about the viewer) in the sample you provided. I see possibly “secretiveness” and “a challenging disposition” (I assume the model is trying to convey something about herself).
    - thebooktocome 8y ago
      They both look neutral to me?
    - Pfhreak 8y ago
      I don't see that second picture on the cv dazzle site at all. All the pictures I see on cv are unquestionably neutral in disposition.
      - tzahola 8y ago
        Ok, here's an example from the cvdazzle site: https://cvdazzle.com/assets/img/coreana/coreana-04-copyright-cha-hyun-seo.jpg https://cvdazzle.com/assets/img/coreana/coreana-04-copyright...
joemi 8y ago
cvdazzle is explicitly mentioned in the article and is claimed to be less effective than Juggalo makeup.
- merlincorey 8y ago
  In some cases, it said.
  - lucideer 8y ago
    The article says in some cases, for some reason, but the link the article references for this statement is less ambiguous and actually states unequivocally that it's "less effective than juggalo makeup"[0] [0] https://twitter.com/tahkion/status/1013324066361524224 https://twitter.com/tahkion/status/1013324066361524224
sandworm101 8y ago
>>> used among Juggalos to deter computerized facial recognition - of course we know that's not the case. Yes and no. Such levels of makeup are meant to be a mask. They are meant to at least partially obscure a person's true features or emotions. Facial recognition is having a very difficult time with women's faces under heavy makeup. Styles with strait lines or geometric shapes (right angles) really throws them off. I'd expect that no facial recognition system could yet survive comicon.
- ggg9990 8y ago
  It’s not surprising that facial recognition has trouble with makeup... if you’ve seen some of these photos of celebrity women with no makeup you wouldn’t recognize them in a million years.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    Very surprising to me! I thought facial recognition was supposed to work on the relative size and separation of major anatomical features — eyes, nose, mouth, jawline, ears, that sort of thing. Any such recogniser which can be fooled by the usual surface details, especially given that roughly half the adult population of rich western nations have significant social pressure to apply such decoration, it would not be fit for purpose. That said, the examples given in the article seem rather more extreme than any conventional makup. I can easily believe this would fool an AI that scored perfectly on conventional (non subculture) western levels of makup.
    - kolpa 8y ago
      It's interesting that makeup does a great job of fooling people (that's a big part of why it exists) yet such a poor job of fooling machines. It shows/reminds that machines do not see the world the wy people do.
kbenson 8y ago
The world is filled with people that figured out things accidentally because they were doing something else. For example, the person who figured out how to heat food with microwaves (and created the first microwave) didn't set out to do so, he discovered that the chocolate bar in his front pocket melted while working on magnetrons. "Figuring something out" doesn't imply concerted research towards that goal, accidental understanding happens all the time to all of us on many topics.
- spraak 8y ago
  I guess so, but it leaves a chemical taste in the mouth after taking the clickbait
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    You saw something about Juggalos, and clicked?
    - spraak 8y ago
      No, I saw something about machine learning and clicked.
- irrational 8y ago
  If I had a chocolate bar melt in my front pocket, I would have assumed it was my body heat.
  - JasonFruit 8y ago
    (I can't find the reference right now, but apparently the chocolate bar story is a myth.)
    - jdietrich 8y ago
      RF heating was understood well before the development of the cavity magnetron; Westinghouse demonstrated RF cooking at the 1933 World's Fair using a standard shortwave transmitter. The chocolate bar story is attributed to Percy Spencer in 1945 and is probably somewhat fanciful - anyone working around high-power radar equipment would necessarily be aware of RF heating, because it presents a significant safety hazard. Spencer can legitimately claim to be the inventor of the microwave oven and is named on Raytheon's patent. https://patents.google.com/patent/US2495429A/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US2495429A/
dkonofalski 8y ago
Not only that but the article implies that they "beat" facial recognition and yet the makeup in question wouldn't fool Apple's FaceID, which is probably the largest facial recognition platform in the wild, because it's not just using camera data. This might fool Facebook's matching algorithms from pictures but it's not going to ruin anyone's day from a security standpoint.
- aaron_m04 8y ago
  > [...] and yet the makeup in question wouldn't fool Apple's FaceID, which is probably the largest facial recognition platform in the wild, because it's not just using camera data. What sensors is FaceID using besides the camera?
  - huntertwo 8y ago
    IR sensor
    - nkristoffersen 8y ago
      And IR dot projector.
toofy 8y ago
> The title of this article seems to imply that face painting was intentionally used among Juggalos to deter computerized facial recognition... I find it so interesting how we all interpret text so differently. As I said in another comment, Knowing how many discoveries throughout history were completely accidental I actually interpreted the headline to mean they “stumbled upon” a method to beat facial recognition. Its neat how we all infer our own meanings from headlines, at least here in this community we generally assume good faith rather than jumping to assumptions that the authors are bad people. And you’re right about the CVDazzle, the cyberpunk nerd in me desperately hopes something like this becomes a fashion trend.
- wingerlang 8y ago
  I don't think "figure out" and "stumbled upon" is quite that similar. Figure out, to me, implies that there were actively tinkering with it.
juancb 8y ago
They should seek funding to help them continue to disrupt the facial recognition space. The entrepreneurial spirit really is alive everywhere you look.
tjr225 8y ago
That link is so wildly cyberpunk! I love it... as janky as the future is it is here, isn't it?

tzahola 8y ago

Checked the cvdazzle site. Why do these models - and models on "high fashion" photos in general - look always like they feel deep contempt towards the viewer? Where did this trope come from? What are they trying to suggest? I don't get it.

cardiffspaceman 8y ago
> What are they trying to suggest? That smiling pleasantly is hard
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
yellowapple 8y ago
If I had to pose for a camera while wearing ridiculous-looking clothes and/or makeup, I'd have some pretty deep contempt for everyone involved (including the viewer) as well.
- the-pigeon 8y ago
  If you are a model then you choose the wrong career path...
  - scotu 8y ago
    not everybody has the luxury of doing what they like in life...
    - jsonne 8y ago
      While that may be true modeling certainly doesn't fall into that category of professions.
      - yellowapple 8y ago
        It actually does, and with surprising frequency. Professional models in the high-fashion world often endure considerable amounts of work-related stress, and the decision to do a particular job is often less of an "I like doing this" and more of an "I have to do this to stay relevant / make ends meet / satisfy contract obligations / etc.". Even a seemingly-normal photoshoot can end up being excessively taxing both physically and mentally; the viewer only sees the end result, not the hours of standing around holding poses while the photographers try to get the photo oh so perfect or the hours of wardrobe and makeup prep or the overwhelming pressure to not eat (or - worse - to purge after meals) in order to remain palatable to the mass market and its unrealistic-bordering-on-downright-impossible body image expectations. My original comment was a lame joke, sure, but it's one with a disturbing amount of truth behind it. Not all models like being models. I'd wager that hating the job might even be the norm. It has a high potential to be excessively stressful and even outright degrading, not to mention that it's a hotbed for shady business practices, outright fraud, and abuse (psychological, physical, and sexual alike). It's a career path notorious for its workers having little to no bargaining power. I suspect that the folks voting my comment down don't actually know how shitty of a job modeling can be. I don't blame them for not knowing; on the surface, being a model seems fun and glamorous, right? Never mind that - like how office work is (usually) more than sitting around playing Solitaire all day - professional modeling is (usually) more than just hanging out all day and getting the occasional photo taken real quick (there is no "real quick" to these sorts of photo shoots). Just my two cents.
aaronbrethorst 8y ago
http://theconversation.com/why-fashion-models-dont-smile-53658 http://theconversation.com/why-fashion-models-dont-smile-536...
danharaj 8y ago
They're trying to have a neutral face so it doesn't distract from what they're modelling.
- tzahola 8y ago
  But it's not a neutral face. It's a face of disdain and contempt. This is a neutral face: https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/article-inline-half/public/field_blog_entry_images/shutterstock_114522091.jpg?itok=a7EVvRFs https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/a... And this is the face of disdain I'm talking about: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGkhmT2x0fhKItaDSLmrBPiDSaHYt2TccXHGNV4_5aPWpXIsxlZg https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGkhmT...
  - phs318u 8y ago
    I know this is subjective but I just don’t see “disdain and contempt” (which assumes the model is trying to communicate something about the viewer) in the sample you provided. I see possibly “secretiveness” and “a challenging disposition” (I assume the model is trying to convey something about herself).
  - thebooktocome 8y ago
    They both look neutral to me?
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    I don't see that second picture on the cv dazzle site at all. All the pictures I see on cv are unquestionably neutral in disposition.
    - tzahola 8y ago
      Ok, here's an example from the cvdazzle site: https://cvdazzle.com/assets/img/coreana/coreana-04-copyright-cha-hyun-seo.jpg https://cvdazzle.com/assets/img/coreana/coreana-04-copyright...

joemi 8y ago

cvdazzle is explicitly mentioned in the article and is claimed to be less effective than Juggalo makeup.

merlincorey 8y ago
In some cases, it said.
- lucideer 8y ago
  The article says in some cases, for some reason, but the link the article references for this statement is less ambiguous and actually states unequivocally that it's "less effective than juggalo makeup"[0] [0] https://twitter.com/tahkion/status/1013324066361524224 https://twitter.com/tahkion/status/1013324066361524224

sandworm101 8y ago

>>> used among Juggalos to deter computerized facial recognition - of course we know that's not the case. Yes and no. Such levels of makeup are meant to be a mask. They are meant to at least partially obscure a person's true features or emotions. Facial recognition is having a very difficult time with women's faces under heavy makeup. Styles with strait lines or geometric shapes (right angles) really throws them off. I'd expect that no facial recognition system could yet survive comicon.

ggg9990 8y ago
It’s not surprising that facial recognition has trouble with makeup... if you’ve seen some of these photos of celebrity women with no makeup you wouldn’t recognize them in a million years.
- ben_w 8y ago
  Very surprising to me! I thought facial recognition was supposed to work on the relative size and separation of major anatomical features — eyes, nose, mouth, jawline, ears, that sort of thing. Any such recogniser which can be fooled by the usual surface details, especially given that roughly half the adult population of rich western nations have significant social pressure to apply such decoration, it would not be fit for purpose. That said, the examples given in the article seem rather more extreme than any conventional makup. I can easily believe this would fool an AI that scored perfectly on conventional (non subculture) western levels of makup.
  - kolpa 8y ago
    It's interesting that makeup does a great job of fooling people (that's a big part of why it exists) yet such a poor job of fooling machines. It shows/reminds that machines do not see the world the wy people do.

kbenson 8y ago

The world is filled with people that figured out things accidentally because they were doing something else. For example, the person who figured out how to heat food with microwaves (and created the first microwave) didn't set out to do so, he discovered that the chocolate bar in his front pocket melted while working on magnetrons. "Figuring something out" doesn't imply concerted research towards that goal, accidental understanding happens all the time to all of us on many topics.

spraak 8y ago
I guess so, but it leaves a chemical taste in the mouth after taking the clickbait
- jessaustin 8y ago
  You saw something about Juggalos, and clicked?
  - spraak 8y ago
    No, I saw something about machine learning and clicked.
irrational 8y ago
If I had a chocolate bar melt in my front pocket, I would have assumed it was my body heat.
- JasonFruit 8y ago
  (I can't find the reference right now, but apparently the chocolate bar story is a myth.)
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    RF heating was understood well before the development of the cavity magnetron; Westinghouse demonstrated RF cooking at the 1933 World's Fair using a standard shortwave transmitter. The chocolate bar story is attributed to Percy Spencer in 1945 and is probably somewhat fanciful - anyone working around high-power radar equipment would necessarily be aware of RF heating, because it presents a significant safety hazard. Spencer can legitimately claim to be the inventor of the microwave oven and is named on Raytheon's patent. https://patents.google.com/patent/US2495429A/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US2495429A/

dkonofalski 8y ago

Not only that but the article implies that they "beat" facial recognition and yet the makeup in question wouldn't fool Apple's FaceID, which is probably the largest facial recognition platform in the wild, because it's not just using camera data. This might fool Facebook's matching algorithms from pictures but it's not going to ruin anyone's day from a security standpoint.

aaron_m04 8y ago
> [...] and yet the makeup in question wouldn't fool Apple's FaceID, which is probably the largest facial recognition platform in the wild, because it's not just using camera data. What sensors is FaceID using besides the camera?
- huntertwo 8y ago
  IR sensor
  - nkristoffersen 8y ago
    And IR dot projector.

toofy 8y ago

> The title of this article seems to imply that face painting was intentionally used among Juggalos to deter computerized facial recognition... I find it so interesting how we all interpret text so differently. As I said in another comment, Knowing how many discoveries throughout history were completely accidental I actually interpreted the headline to mean they “stumbled upon” a method to beat facial recognition. Its neat how we all infer our own meanings from headlines, at least here in this community we generally assume good faith rather than jumping to assumptions that the authors are bad people. And you’re right about the CVDazzle, the cyberpunk nerd in me desperately hopes something like this becomes a fashion trend.

wingerlang 8y ago
I don't think "figure out" and "stumbled upon" is quite that similar. Figure out, to me, implies that there were actively tinkering with it.

juancb 8y ago

They should seek funding to help them continue to disrupt the facial recognition space. The entrepreneurial spirit really is alive everywhere you look.

tjr225 8y ago

That link is so wildly cyberpunk! I love it... as janky as the future is it is here, isn't it?