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This is at the exact same time that Chinese-Taiwan competitors has replicated Micro's core IP: https://www.eteknix.com/micron-claims-chinese-startup-has-stolen

This is at the exact same time that Chinese-Taiwan competitors has replicated Micro's core IP: https://www.eteknix.com/micron-claims-chinese-startup-has-stolen-memory-secrets/ https://www.eteknix.com/micron-claims-chinese-startup-has-st... Coincidence? Very much unlikely. In many ways Trump's aggressive trade practices may be the only answer to this if Trump focused on China. Unfortunately he seems to be focused on Europe and Canada instead, which are small fry in the grand scheme of things. Fragmented Europe and Canada are not fighting for economic world leadership in the way that China is.

tooltalk 8y ago
You know I feel a bit funny about this. These hit-job news articles remind me of Samsung-Apple lawsuits which just ended last week. There were numerous anti-Samsung pieces (eg, the infamous Vanity Fair article comes to my mind which was rumored to have been influenced/paid for by Apple's lawyers at MOFO)_trying to sway the public opinion against Samsung during the course of the lawsuit. Samsung had a couple of opportunities to overturn the case, but the Obama administration actually stepped in in the name of "public interest" and reversed their win, effectively protecting Apple from getting punished for stealing Samsung's IPs. Now, I'm going to wear a tin-foil hat and speculate that these blown-out-of-proportion articles are influenced and/or paid for by Micron and the US trade commission in anticipation of adversarial ruling from China. Micron is a politically well connected company and is also one of the last semi manufacturers in the US. It's important to develop and win public approval before making drastic public/trade policy -- not that Trump would care, but Micron certainly does. I have no problem with this, BTW. I think it's fair to put nation's interest before IPs and other commercial activity -- as the Obama administration did. China likewise can do whatever they see as necessary to protect and nurture their own.
- pishpash 8y ago
  Exactly. Getting all worked up over this is stupid. It's "war" "propaganda."
  - tooltalk 8y ago
    I totally agree. don't understand why you got downvoted so much.
- delfinom 8y ago
  >Micron is a politically well connected company and is also one of the last semi manufacturers in the US. Eh? There are less semi manufacturers in the US but only because theyve all been merging like crazy. There isnt less volume or engineers or anything. Just all under one of the big names now.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    Sure, which means that it's a lot of eggs in one basket.
ajross 8y ago
> In many ways Trump's aggressive trade practices may be the only answer to this if Trump focused on China. That's circular, US "aggressive trade practices" (which means unilateral tarrifs, let's not spin, please) came first, so making them "the only answer" is sort of self-fulfilling. Frankly it's much more likely that Chinese trade shenanigans like this are the result of the escalating trade war. The volatile climate makes "big steps" like enjoining a whole foreign company more attractive as the relative threat of retaliation is less. If you think your opponent is going to pull the trigger, you shoot first. Now we just have to wait for more, ahem, "aggressive trade practices" to be announced by the White House, and we'll escalate further. This is what a trade war looks like, folks.
- ethicsengineer 8y ago
  Are you saying that Trump's aggressive trade policy is the reason why China is stealing American IP?
  - ajross 8y ago
    I genuinely thought I'd been pretty clear, so that question seems like you're trying an unhelpful "gotcha" instead of reading what I wrote. I'm saying that Trump's "aggressive trade policy" (senseless surprise tarrifs) was the impetus for this particular action (senseless surprise import ban). Absent that, the IP theft would have continued quietly (as it always has, everywhere) and the destabilizing trade war wouldn't be happening. You seem to be taking an absolutist perspective: IP theft[1] must not ever be tolerated and any action to prevent it, however destabilizing, must be taken. And that's how you get trade wars (real wars too, FWIW). This was a nice modern economy we had while it lasted. [1] I mean, come on. It's ?!@#! DRAM and flash. There are a half dozen manufacturers all over the world making exactly this same junk. It's not like sudden "Chinese" threat to Micron was going to introduce competition in any way that Samsung and Fujitsu were not already providing. Please.
    - defen 8y ago
      > There are a half dozen manufacturers all over the world making exactly this same junk. Not in the densities required for modern uses.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
Trump isn't working for America, but for the one that gets him personal more money and credit
- zavi 8y ago
  You tell them Nico! #feeltheburn
paulmd 8y ago
The larger context here is this all takes place in the context of a DRAM market where prices have increased roughly 200% over the last 2 years (the same 16GB DDR4-3000 kits I paid $63 for 16 GB for in May 2016 are now $171). Meanwhile, Hynix, Samsung, and Micron are all planning to reduce capacity relative to projected growth of demand. The DRAM cartel is very clearly back into action and China isn't going to sit by and let their electronics industry be strangled by these massive price increases. Over the last 6 months (before the Trump stuff even started) their anti-trust regulator has been having some pointed words with the DRAM fabs, backstopped by bringing their own domestic production online. Samsung, for one, is playing ball, and signed a memorandum of understanding with China's antitrust regulators. Taking the DRAM cartel down a peg is a good thing for consumers, a good thing for downstream electronics manufacturers (phones/laptops/etc), and a bad thing if your name is "Samsung", "Micron", or "Hynix". http://www.china.org.cn/business/2017-12/23/content_50157479.htm http://www.china.org.cn/business/2017-12/23/content_50157479... https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/21/china_memory_insource/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/21/china_memory_insour... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-samsung-elec-chips-outlook-analysis/end-of-a-chip-boom-memory-chip-price-drop-spooks-investors-idUSKBN1F406U https://www.reuters.com/article/us-samsung-elec-chips-outloo... https://seekingalpha.com/news/3327772-samsung-headed-china-agreement-likely-ding-dram-prices https://seekingalpha.com/news/3327772-samsung-headed-china-a... https://www.extremetech.com/computing/270666-china-launches-investigation-of-dram-manufacturers https://www.extremetech.com/computing/270666-china-launches-... https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180614PD212.html?mod=3&q=micron https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180614PD212.html?mod=3&q=m... Now, are they going to be extra pointed about this with Micron considering Trump is starting a trade war? Absolutely, but this has been going on for a half year now.
- tooltalk 8y ago
  Sure, but you are also forgetting the fact the DRAM industry was in glut and they suffered huge loss leading up to the point. Was it Cartels intend to drive the price so low that they would be almost out of business too?
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > the DRAM industry was in glut and they suffered huge loss leading up to the point. So what caused that glut? There are very few things that come to mind (if any) that I can think of that excuse price collusion in a market, which is what was claimed above.
rdlecler1 8y ago
I have to assume that Trump is applying pressure to everyone else so that he can then offer to relieve the pressure if they get tough with China. If the pressure hadn’t been put on in the first place you wouldn’t have been able to motivate them to action. Or maybe Trump isn’t playing 3D chess.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  You give too much credit to Donald. Most likely he is just doing what he thinks will get him the most media attention, and so far he has been wildly successful in doing so.

tooltalk 8y ago

You know I feel a bit funny about this. These hit-job news articles remind me of Samsung-Apple lawsuits which just ended last week. There were numerous anti-Samsung pieces (eg, the infamous Vanity Fair article comes to my mind which was rumored to have been influenced/paid for by Apple's lawyers at MOFO)_trying to sway the public opinion against Samsung during the course of the lawsuit. Samsung had a couple of opportunities to overturn the case, but the Obama administration actually stepped in in the name of "public interest" and reversed their win, effectively protecting Apple from getting punished for stealing Samsung's IPs. Now, I'm going to wear a tin-foil hat and speculate that these blown-out-of-proportion articles are influenced and/or paid for by Micron and the US trade commission in anticipation of adversarial ruling from China. Micron is a politically well connected company and is also one of the last semi manufacturers in the US. It's important to develop and win public approval before making drastic public/trade policy -- not that Trump would care, but Micron certainly does. I have no problem with this, BTW. I think it's fair to put nation's interest before IPs and other commercial activity -- as the Obama administration did. China likewise can do whatever they see as necessary to protect and nurture their own.

pishpash 8y ago
Exactly. Getting all worked up over this is stupid. It's "war" "propaganda."
- tooltalk 8y ago
  I totally agree. don't understand why you got downvoted so much.
delfinom 8y ago
>Micron is a politically well connected company and is also one of the last semi manufacturers in the US. Eh? There are less semi manufacturers in the US but only because theyve all been merging like crazy. There isnt less volume or engineers or anything. Just all under one of the big names now.
- monocasa 8y ago
  Sure, which means that it's a lot of eggs in one basket.

ajross 8y ago

> In many ways Trump's aggressive trade practices may be the only answer to this if Trump focused on China. That's circular, US "aggressive trade practices" (which means unilateral tarrifs, let's not spin, please) came first, so making them "the only answer" is sort of self-fulfilling. Frankly it's much more likely that Chinese trade shenanigans like this are the result of the escalating trade war. The volatile climate makes "big steps" like enjoining a whole foreign company more attractive as the relative threat of retaliation is less. If you think your opponent is going to pull the trigger, you shoot first. Now we just have to wait for more, ahem, "aggressive trade practices" to be announced by the White House, and we'll escalate further. This is what a trade war looks like, folks.

ethicsengineer 8y ago
Are you saying that Trump's aggressive trade policy is the reason why China is stealing American IP?
- ajross 8y ago
  I genuinely thought I'd been pretty clear, so that question seems like you're trying an unhelpful "gotcha" instead of reading what I wrote. I'm saying that Trump's "aggressive trade policy" (senseless surprise tarrifs) was the impetus for this particular action (senseless surprise import ban). Absent that, the IP theft would have continued quietly (as it always has, everywhere) and the destabilizing trade war wouldn't be happening. You seem to be taking an absolutist perspective: IP theft[1] must not ever be tolerated and any action to prevent it, however destabilizing, must be taken. And that's how you get trade wars (real wars too, FWIW). This was a nice modern economy we had while it lasted. [1] I mean, come on. It's ?!@#! DRAM and flash. There are a half dozen manufacturers all over the world making exactly this same junk. It's not like sudden "Chinese" threat to Micron was going to introduce competition in any way that Samsung and Fujitsu were not already providing. Please.
  - defen 8y ago
    > There are a half dozen manufacturers all over the world making exactly this same junk. Not in the densities required for modern uses.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

Trump isn't working for America, but for the one that gets him personal more money and credit

zavi 8y ago
You tell them Nico! #feeltheburn

paulmd 8y ago

The larger context here is this all takes place in the context of a DRAM market where prices have increased roughly 200% over the last 2 years (the same 16GB DDR4-3000 kits I paid $63 for 16 GB for in May 2016 are now $171). Meanwhile, Hynix, Samsung, and Micron are all planning to reduce capacity relative to projected growth of demand. The DRAM cartel is very clearly back into action and China isn't going to sit by and let their electronics industry be strangled by these massive price increases. Over the last 6 months (before the Trump stuff even started) their anti-trust regulator has been having some pointed words with the DRAM fabs, backstopped by bringing their own domestic production online. Samsung, for one, is playing ball, and signed a memorandum of understanding with China's antitrust regulators. Taking the DRAM cartel down a peg is a good thing for consumers, a good thing for downstream electronics manufacturers (phones/laptops/etc), and a bad thing if your name is "Samsung", "Micron", or "Hynix". http://www.china.org.cn/business/2017-12/23/content_50157479.htm http://www.china.org.cn/business/2017-12/23/content_50157479... https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/21/china_memory_insource/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/21/china_memory_insour... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-samsung-elec-chips-outlook-analysis/end-of-a-chip-boom-memory-chip-price-drop-spooks-investors-idUSKBN1F406U https://www.reuters.com/article/us-samsung-elec-chips-outloo... https://seekingalpha.com/news/3327772-samsung-headed-china-agreement-likely-ding-dram-prices https://seekingalpha.com/news/3327772-samsung-headed-china-a... https://www.extremetech.com/computing/270666-china-launches-investigation-of-dram-manufacturers https://www.extremetech.com/computing/270666-china-launches-... https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180614PD212.html?mod=3&q=micron https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180614PD212.html?mod=3&q=m... Now, are they going to be extra pointed about this with Micron considering Trump is starting a trade war? Absolutely, but this has been going on for a half year now.

tooltalk 8y ago
Sure, but you are also forgetting the fact the DRAM industry was in glut and they suffered huge loss leading up to the point. Was it Cartels intend to drive the price so low that they would be almost out of business too?
- kbenson 8y ago
  > the DRAM industry was in glut and they suffered huge loss leading up to the point. So what caused that glut? There are very few things that come to mind (if any) that I can think of that excuse price collusion in a market, which is what was claimed above.

rdlecler1 8y ago

I have to assume that Trump is applying pressure to everyone else so that he can then offer to relieve the pressure if they get tough with China. If the pressure hadn’t been put on in the first place you wouldn’t have been able to motivate them to action. Or maybe Trump isn’t playing 3D chess.

craftyguy 8y ago
You give too much credit to Donald. Most likely he is just doing what he thinks will get him the most media attention, and so far he has been wildly successful in doing so.