5 ms·

> Consider Phlebas I had read and enjoyed, but it seemed flat, uninspired and uninteresting on second reading. For what it's worth, Consider Phlebas was my int

by Osmium 8y ago

> Consider Phlebas I had read and enjoyed, but it seemed flat, uninspired and uninteresting on second reading. For what it's worth, Consider Phlebas was my introduction to Banks: I found it ok. Something like an above-average sci-fi action movie. I enjoyed reading it, and it left an impression, but not a spectacular one. However, I stuck with Banks, and by the time I got to Use of Weapons ... that was a book that really did floor me. I think Banks is really something special. Enlightening, maybe. Even if he can be uneven at times, I still haven't read anyone else quite like him. Perhaps if I read it again, the magic wouldn't work a second time, I don't know, but it sure did work the first time.

cryoshon 8y ago
enlightening is the right word. it isn't that his characters are interesting. they're multi dimensional but still mostly without an engaging personality (with the exception of the doctor from inversions and cheradenine zakalwe from use of weapons). it isn't that the universe is very interesting. it's a basic space opera setup with a few quirks like sublimation that are mysterious but ultimately irrelevant. likewise, the plots are fairly boring. group X clandestinely does Y because Z; the end result is typically a tiny nudge in favor of group X's agenda. but the ideology and technology of the Culture -- there's the entire value of the series. all of their technology is thought-provoking because it asks the question of what society should look like if such a technology could plausibly exist. likewise, the Culture's "system of government" is a great thought experiment on the best possible interpretation of anarchy. banks sets up plotlines to contrast the Culture against a number of other systems of government, and captures the failures of those very effectively across a huge swath of different contexts ranging from gender relations to art to pleasure to resource distribution. the Culture doesn't always get a favorable rating, either -- and so banks exposes the contradictions implied in societies. fascinatingly, banks captures the essence of the Culture in a way that few other writers can do with any concept of such complexity. i feel confident that nearly all readers of the books could re-create Culture society to a high level of accuracy if they were prompted. yet if you try to distill Culture society into a few paragraphs, it's really hard! so yeah, i read the books for the Culture. it's a shame banks died, i think he could have written a dozen more books in the series and delivered more great material.
- Osmium 8y ago
  > but the ideology and technology of the Culture -- there's the entire value of the series. > fascinatingly, banks captures the essence of the Culture in a way that few other writers can do with any concept of such complexity. Yes, I couldn't have put it better myself :) The Culture is the main character; the unifying theme. And it is fascinating. More-so than any one person or plot or event. And this surprises me: I generally don't enjoy world-building for the sake of world-building, which many authors have done or attempt to do. But this is something else. It's very special.
tbabb 8y ago
Consider Phlebas was how I discovered the "rule of 50" (or more generally, "put down a book when you are sick of it"). The book felt like an aimless wander from one scene to the next, with little overarching drive, and a bland main character without purpose. Basically a string of "and thens". The comparison to a generic sci-fi action movie is a good one-- empty (at least as far as I got into it) of character and philosophy.
- caconym_ 8y ago
  I remember thinking it felt a lot like a series of short stories centered around set pieces, that happened to have some degree of continuity. IIRC (could be totally wrong) Use of Weapons was the first novel he seriously tried to get published, and Wasp Factory was his first success. I always wondered if Consider Phlebas was stitched together from even earlier material.
zbentley 8y ago
I agree re: Phlebas. Use of Weapons, while I know it's one of the more famous ones, didn't strike me as much better, though. A lot of people have taken me to task for that opinion, though, so I've a hunch I'm missing some type of life experience that would allow me to better connect with the stuff detailed in Weapons. In general, I think there are basically three tiers of Banks books: Shit-tier. Examples: Player of Games, Against a Dark Background. Overly simplistic or simply without point. Mediocre: Consider Phlebas, Use of Weapons, a lot of others. Nothing to really tie them together, but enough interesting moments that you don't absolutely hate them. God-tier: Excession, Matter, Hydrogen Sonata. Books that have few if any bad qualities, and are massively thought provoking to boot.
- scubbo 8y ago
  Wow - our experiences are completely different! I consider the God-tier to be exclusively Excession, The Player of Games, and Use of Weapons, and most of the rest are simply "good" (but, as a later commenter points out, still enjoyable because you get to experience The Culture) - and I thought Matter was particularly weak. I'm looking forward to going back to Matter and The Hydrogen Sonata to see what I missed in them! Thank you!
  - zbentley 8y ago
    Fascinating differences. I hope you really enjoy Matter; it's largely a hyper-polished version of what he does in a lot of the other culture-agent-plus-less-developed-society books. Let me know what you think!

by Osmium 8y ago

cryoshon 8y ago

enlightening is the right word. it isn't that his characters are interesting. they're multi dimensional but still mostly without an engaging personality (with the exception of the doctor from inversions and cheradenine zakalwe from use of weapons). it isn't that the universe is very interesting. it's a basic space opera setup with a few quirks like sublimation that are mysterious but ultimately irrelevant. likewise, the plots are fairly boring. group X clandestinely does Y because Z; the end result is typically a tiny nudge in favor of group X's agenda. but the ideology and technology of the Culture -- there's the entire value of the series. all of their technology is thought-provoking because it asks the question of what society should look like if such a technology could plausibly exist. likewise, the Culture's "system of government" is a great thought experiment on the best possible interpretation of anarchy. banks sets up plotlines to contrast the Culture against a number of other systems of government, and captures the failures of those very effectively across a huge swath of different contexts ranging from gender relations to art to pleasure to resource distribution. the Culture doesn't always get a favorable rating, either -- and so banks exposes the contradictions implied in societies. fascinatingly, banks captures the essence of the Culture in a way that few other writers can do with any concept of such complexity. i feel confident that nearly all readers of the books could re-create Culture society to a high level of accuracy if they were prompted. yet if you try to distill Culture society into a few paragraphs, it's really hard! so yeah, i read the books for the Culture. it's a shame banks died, i think he could have written a dozen more books in the series and delivered more great material.

Osmium 8y ago
> but the ideology and technology of the Culture -- there's the entire value of the series. > fascinatingly, banks captures the essence of the Culture in a way that few other writers can do with any concept of such complexity. Yes, I couldn't have put it better myself :) The Culture is the main character; the unifying theme. And it is fascinating. More-so than any one person or plot or event. And this surprises me: I generally don't enjoy world-building for the sake of world-building, which many authors have done or attempt to do. But this is something else. It's very special.

tbabb 8y ago

Consider Phlebas was how I discovered the "rule of 50" (or more generally, "put down a book when you are sick of it"). The book felt like an aimless wander from one scene to the next, with little overarching drive, and a bland main character without purpose. Basically a string of "and thens". The comparison to a generic sci-fi action movie is a good one-- empty (at least as far as I got into it) of character and philosophy.

caconym_ 8y ago
I remember thinking it felt a lot like a series of short stories centered around set pieces, that happened to have some degree of continuity. IIRC (could be totally wrong) Use of Weapons was the first novel he seriously tried to get published, and Wasp Factory was his first success. I always wondered if Consider Phlebas was stitched together from even earlier material.

zbentley 8y ago

I agree re: Phlebas. Use of Weapons, while I know it's one of the more famous ones, didn't strike me as much better, though. A lot of people have taken me to task for that opinion, though, so I've a hunch I'm missing some type of life experience that would allow me to better connect with the stuff detailed in Weapons. In general, I think there are basically three tiers of Banks books: Shit-tier. Examples: Player of Games, Against a Dark Background. Overly simplistic or simply without point. Mediocre: Consider Phlebas, Use of Weapons, a lot of others. Nothing to really tie them together, but enough interesting moments that you don't absolutely hate them. God-tier: Excession, Matter, Hydrogen Sonata. Books that have few if any bad qualities, and are massively thought provoking to boot.

scubbo 8y ago
Wow - our experiences are completely different! I consider the God-tier to be exclusively Excession, The Player of Games, and Use of Weapons, and most of the rest are simply "good" (but, as a later commenter points out, still enjoyable because you get to experience The Culture) - and I thought Matter was particularly weak. I'm looking forward to going back to Matter and The Hydrogen Sonata to see what I missed in them! Thank you!
- zbentley 8y ago
  Fascinating differences. I hope you really enjoy Matter; it's largely a hyper-polished version of what he does in a lot of the other culture-agent-plus-less-developed-society books. Let me know what you think!