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The web is becoming more and more fragmented. I wonder where this will lead to. Europe seems to fall behind the US at an accelerating pace. During the last two

by TekMol 8y ago

The web is becoming more and more fragmented. I wonder where this will lead to. Europe seems to fall behind the US at an accelerating pace. During the last two decades, Europe already failed to take part in building the internet. Now Europeans all use US services. Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, Google, Dropbox, AirBnB, Uber... This was due to the culture of Europes entrepreneurs which is often "bureaucracy first, product later". Now lawmakers seem busy putting another burden on top of that. Laws that put Europe behind the rest of the world in how easy it is to build online services. Where will Europe be in 20 years? Will it become a developing continent of the digital area? Or will German Engineers somehow make up for innovation via assiduous execution? I find it hard to see how that could work. Politicians might think 'Now that we have the web, lets regulate it'. But I wonder: Now that we lost the web, how will we avoid the same with AI? AI will have orders of magnitude more impact on our lives then the web. How will we avoid losing crypto? In the age of crypto, people might freely chose what currency to use. Do we want the worlds currency to be owned by a US company? How will we avoid losing biotech? Will the same happen to our bodies that happened to our data? Will they be owned by a handful of US companies?

woolvalley 8y ago
European engineers will move to places that pay them higher, like a chunk of them do today.
- DJHenk 8y ago
  They do that? I never noticed anything like that. Do you have a source? And while this bill indeed is a disaster, I really don't mind some extra regulations. They might not get it right the first time, but seeing how normal Americans get screwed and exploited over and over by internet companies, I think it's better than having no regulation at all.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    I have coworkers here in the USA, from Europe. You do know the pay is significantly higher for software engineers in the USA compared to anywhere in the EU correct?
    - DJHenk 8y ago
      I don't know that. It is not enough to compare raw numbers, since the cost of living is so different. Healthcare is a famous example. But even leaving that aside, wages and standard of living differ already significant within Europe and I assume the same goes for the United States. My colleagues and I live a comfortable life with a pay well above average in my country (The Netherlands) and while no country is perfect, I don't think I'd move away from family and friends even if I was payed double overseas.
      - chimeracoder 8y ago
        > It is not enough to compare raw numbers, since the cost of living is so different. Healthcare is a famous example. Yes, but this has the opposite effect from what you'd expect. The US has higher disposable income, both per capita and at the median, than Europe does. That means that, even accounting for the greater cost of healthcare in the US, households end up with greater purchasing power. That's true across the country, but if you're comparing tech jobs, the effect is even more pronounced, because most tech companies provide health plans that ultimately are comparable (in terms of out-of-pocket expenses) to coverage in most of Europe. So you end up with significantly higher salaries[0], much lower taxes, and comparable health benefits. As you point out, there may be other reasons that someone might not want to move (or be able to move), but there's no ignoring that salaries, disposable income, and purchasing power are dramatically higher in the US. [0] London, for example, typically pays about half what you get in NYC or SF, for the same job title at the same company.
        vilmosi 8y ago
        >>> So you end up with significantly higher salaries[0], much lower taxes, and comparable health benefits If you're talking about Silicon Valley or New York, taxes won't be that different. And you'll get decent health insurance, sure. But it's still insurance (co-pays, premiums, only covered at these clinics etc)
        woolvalley 8y ago
mtberatwork 8y ago
> Now Europeans all use US services. Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, Google, Dropbox, AirBnB, Uber... Well, to be fair, everyone (sans China) uses these US services too.
- pentae 8y ago
  And I can't think of any other countries imposing their laws on the rest of the world like the EU is doing.
  - walterstucco 8y ago
    I can think of the US EU is imposing rules on its market, not others
  - cesarb 8y ago
    > And I can't think of any other countries imposing their laws on the rest of the world The USA is infamous for doing exactly that: ITAR, FATCA, ...
  - gyaru 8y ago
    ..USA? Hello, DMCA?
akvadrako 8y ago
Europe is not falling behind the US. That's bullshit. I'm an American living in Amsterdam for a decade or so, so I have some perspective. All those companies you mentioned are prominent, but they are only important because they are a few percent cheaper or more useful or have better marketing. But they come at a high cost to society. European cultures are different. It moves slower. Rules are more acceptable. But the things it produces are more polished. Amsterdam is better than any US city, for example.
- czardoz 8y ago
  > But they come at a high cost to society. That's such a hand-wavy argument. Can you prove that the cost of these laws is less? > Amsterdam is better than any US city, for example. Yes, for you. Not everyone's going to agree with that.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    Not everyone has to agree, but to argue that Europe is falling behind you need to provide some evidence which is greater than all cultural differences. For example, the Neanderthals are falling behind humans because they are all dead.
    - czardoz 8y ago
      > but to argue that Europe is falling behind you need to provide some evidence which is greater than all cultural differences. The parent post does provide evidence: no EU tech companies have hit Google/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft scale. That's not a cultural difference, it shows that EU has not been as successful economically on the internet.
      - walterstucco 8y ago
        Are you really implying that in Europe there are no big tech companies just because in Europe fintech is stronger than search engines? If you look at fortune 500, 143 companies are north American and 143 are European But in 2001 215 were north American while only 158 were from Europe EU market is just more fragmented not less innovative

by TekMol 8y ago

woolvalley 8y ago

European engineers will move to places that pay them higher, like a chunk of them do today.

DJHenk 8y ago
They do that? I never noticed anything like that. Do you have a source? And while this bill indeed is a disaster, I really don't mind some extra regulations. They might not get it right the first time, but seeing how normal Americans get screwed and exploited over and over by internet companies, I think it's better than having no regulation at all.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  I have coworkers here in the USA, from Europe. You do know the pay is significantly higher for software engineers in the USA compared to anywhere in the EU correct?
  - DJHenk 8y ago
    I don't know that. It is not enough to compare raw numbers, since the cost of living is so different. Healthcare is a famous example. But even leaving that aside, wages and standard of living differ already significant within Europe and I assume the same goes for the United States. My colleagues and I live a comfortable life with a pay well above average in my country (The Netherlands) and while no country is perfect, I don't think I'd move away from family and friends even if I was payed double overseas.
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > It is not enough to compare raw numbers, since the cost of living is so different. Healthcare is a famous example. Yes, but this has the opposite effect from what you'd expect. The US has higher disposable income, both per capita and at the median, than Europe does. That means that, even accounting for the greater cost of healthcare in the US, households end up with greater purchasing power. That's true across the country, but if you're comparing tech jobs, the effect is even more pronounced, because most tech companies provide health plans that ultimately are comparable (in terms of out-of-pocket expenses) to coverage in most of Europe. So you end up with significantly higher salaries[0], much lower taxes, and comparable health benefits. As you point out, there may be other reasons that someone might not want to move (or be able to move), but there's no ignoring that salaries, disposable income, and purchasing power are dramatically higher in the US. [0] London, for example, typically pays about half what you get in NYC or SF, for the same job title at the same company.
      - vilmosi 8y ago
        >>> So you end up with significantly higher salaries[0], much lower taxes, and comparable health benefits If you're talking about Silicon Valley or New York, taxes won't be that different. And you'll get decent health insurance, sure. But it's still insurance (co-pays, premiums, only covered at these clinics etc)
        woolvalley 8y ago

mtberatwork 8y ago

> Now Europeans all use US services. Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, Google, Dropbox, AirBnB, Uber... Well, to be fair, everyone (sans China) uses these US services too.

pentae 8y ago
And I can't think of any other countries imposing their laws on the rest of the world like the EU is doing.
- walterstucco 8y ago
  I can think of the US EU is imposing rules on its market, not others
- cesarb 8y ago
  > And I can't think of any other countries imposing their laws on the rest of the world The USA is infamous for doing exactly that: ITAR, FATCA, ...
- gyaru 8y ago
  ..USA? Hello, DMCA?

akvadrako 8y ago

Europe is not falling behind the US. That's bullshit. I'm an American living in Amsterdam for a decade or so, so I have some perspective. All those companies you mentioned are prominent, but they are only important because they are a few percent cheaper or more useful or have better marketing. But they come at a high cost to society. European cultures are different. It moves slower. Rules are more acceptable. But the things it produces are more polished. Amsterdam is better than any US city, for example.

czardoz 8y ago
> But they come at a high cost to society. That's such a hand-wavy argument. Can you prove that the cost of these laws is less? > Amsterdam is better than any US city, for example. Yes, for you. Not everyone's going to agree with that.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  Not everyone has to agree, but to argue that Europe is falling behind you need to provide some evidence which is greater than all cultural differences. For example, the Neanderthals are falling behind humans because they are all dead.
  - czardoz 8y ago
    > but to argue that Europe is falling behind you need to provide some evidence which is greater than all cultural differences. The parent post does provide evidence: no EU tech companies have hit Google/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft scale. That's not a cultural difference, it shows that EU has not been as successful economically on the internet.
    - walterstucco 8y ago
      Are you really implying that in Europe there are no big tech companies just because in Europe fintech is stronger than search engines? If you look at fortune 500, 143 companies are north American and 143 are European But in 2001 215 were north American while only 158 were from Europe EU market is just more fragmented not less innovative