5 ms·

Novels are written to satisfy the social milieu of the time in which it's written. Society's moved on since Jurassic Park, why would it still be relevant?

andromaton 8y ago
Obligatory Shakespeare wants to talk to you.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Shakespeare didn't write novels, he wrote plays and poetry. Edit: I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the HN crowd doesn't care to distinguish between types of creative media.
  - mmartinson 8y ago
    sick burn
  - kej 8y ago
    I think I agree with you that the context of an artistic work is a valuable lens through which to view it, but there are definitely timeless works of art, too. Don Quixote or most of Dickens come to mind.
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      Sure. But novels specifically require a greater-than-usual time investment, so they will appeal to a more niche crowd than a play, it's modern analogue, the movie, or a poem. And the length practically requires filler. Most anyone aiming at timelessness avoids the novel format, which is far more geared towards time-killing entertainment. That doesn't mean you can't find timeless novels, but they're fairly rare. We remember Jane Austen, but not the endless legion of contemporaries inhabiting the same space she did. Your examples themselves are instructive. Don Quixote was one of the very first novels ever written. Of course it's amazing. Dickens' novels were originally serialized in magazines, not published in full. It's a testament to his genius that they're as timeless as they are. His seminal work, A Christmas Carol was published in full, but it was a novella, not a novel. I remember reading Anna Karenina and thinking the pacing could have been a lot tighter. The novel has almost from the beginning been pop fare, more of a business concern than an artistic one.
  - sangnoir 8y ago
    > I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the HN crowd doesn't care to distinguish between types of creative media No snark: did/do you think anyone who has ever read Shakespeare is not aware of that? Even without literature teachers to explain the history and background, the format gives away that secret.
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      No, I don't.
levesque 8y ago
He didn't say it was no longer relevant, just bad. Are you saying we shouldn't read books that are older than a given time limit?
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  And I'm saying that the perception of a novel's 'goodness' depends a lot on its relevance. I'm not saying that you shouldn't read them, but rather that you should consider their relevance when you make your judgment call.
  - levesque 8y ago
    Then I'll say this: I'm pretty sure Jurassic Park was bad science fiction when it came out too.
    - paulcole 8y ago
      But a very entertaining story though!
adamsea 8y ago
I think the parent's comment was more about the literary tastes of a teenager / young adult verses an adult / older person. That isn't to say your point isn't valid, just that it seems orthogonal to the parent's point.
Sangermaine 8y ago
Nonsense. We still read works from centuries or even millennia ago that continue to be lauded and enjoyed.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Not millenia. The oldest novel that we still read is The Tale of Genji, written in 1010, followed by Romance of the Three Kingdoms, followed by Don Quixote. That's three still-relevant novels from 1010 to 1605. There are assuredly dozens to hundreds of novels written in that time period. Three are still relevant today. Whereas many ancient Greek and Roman plays are still performed today, right alongside Shakespeare. The play is simply a more durable form of literature.
  - kthejoker2 8y ago
    He said works, not novels? Odd choice of specificity on your part.
  - Amezarak 8y ago
    Wikipedia describes Lucian's True Story as a novel written circa 200 AD. I had to read it in high school. I'm sure there are other examples. On other comments you describe Quixote as one of the first novels ever written, not just still read, which is definitely very, very far from the case. Don quixote itself cites legions of prior novels!
  - defen 8y ago
    What about The Golden Ass?
  - olavk 8y ago
    Apuleius' "Metamorphoses" is probably the oldest complete novel known. It is from the second century, so much older than the novels you mention. And it is still read - at least I read it a few years ago in translation and found it hilarious and fascinating.
Splines 8y ago
> Novels are written to satisfy the social milieu of the time in which it's written. Some of them are, some of them aren't. It's easier to see this with movies. Pop-culture references and characters using the latest technology are easy ways to make a movie more ephemeral. A character popping memes holding an iPhone X will not age well.
- lsc 8y ago
  >A character popping memes holding an iPhone X will not age well. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If you look at, say, William Gibson and how he talks about brands, especially in his early cyberpunk stuff, it's super dated but also super influential, and I think still good. I mean, looking at Gibsons older stuff? Japan is the future. But Gibsons newer stuff? China is the future. It's not so much a prediction but a statement of how society felt; in the '80s, it did feel like Japan had overtaken us, at least until their bubble burst. In the teens? it kind of feels like China is in that same position, and Gibson's work conveys that feeling perfectly. Gibson can be read as stories about fashion, and fashion is inherently dated. But reading old things about fashion can still be really interesting, even though it might require a little more knowledge of historical context.
musage 8y ago
Because a phrase like "society's moved on" is so empty it even makes pulp like Jurassic Park look deep in comparison.
robotresearcher 8y ago
If the book addresses human fundamentals instead of transient silliness, it can last forever. The Count of Monte Cristo (1844), Heart of Darkness (1899) and Jane Eyre (1847) are still relevant and enjoyable, for example.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  I loved the Count of Monte Christo, and took pains to get an unabridged copy. I got through it, but if I'd had anything else to do at the time, I don't think I would have.
  - robotresearcher 8y ago
    The impatient sci-fi fan can can substitute Alfred Bester's resetting in space. Much shorter and has some cool ideas about teleporting in addition to the revenge served cold. Lacks the lovely florid language of the original. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination
    - jacobolus 8y ago
      Or try the Japanese anime version, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gankutsuou:_The_Count_of_Monte_Cristo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gankutsuou:_The_Count_of_Monte...

andromaton 8y ago

Obligatory Shakespeare wants to talk to you.

vinceguidry 8y ago
Shakespeare didn't write novels, he wrote plays and poetry. Edit: I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the HN crowd doesn't care to distinguish between types of creative media.
- mmartinson 8y ago
  sick burn
- kej 8y ago
  I think I agree with you that the context of an artistic work is a valuable lens through which to view it, but there are definitely timeless works of art, too. Don Quixote or most of Dickens come to mind.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    Sure. But novels specifically require a greater-than-usual time investment, so they will appeal to a more niche crowd than a play, it's modern analogue, the movie, or a poem. And the length practically requires filler. Most anyone aiming at timelessness avoids the novel format, which is far more geared towards time-killing entertainment. That doesn't mean you can't find timeless novels, but they're fairly rare. We remember Jane Austen, but not the endless legion of contemporaries inhabiting the same space she did. Your examples themselves are instructive. Don Quixote was one of the very first novels ever written. Of course it's amazing. Dickens' novels were originally serialized in magazines, not published in full. It's a testament to his genius that they're as timeless as they are. His seminal work, A Christmas Carol was published in full, but it was a novella, not a novel. I remember reading Anna Karenina and thinking the pacing could have been a lot tighter. The novel has almost from the beginning been pop fare, more of a business concern than an artistic one.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  > I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the HN crowd doesn't care to distinguish between types of creative media No snark: did/do you think anyone who has ever read Shakespeare is not aware of that? Even without literature teachers to explain the history and background, the format gives away that secret.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    No, I don't.

levesque 8y ago

He didn't say it was no longer relevant, just bad. Are you saying we shouldn't read books that are older than a given time limit?

vinceguidry 8y ago
And I'm saying that the perception of a novel's 'goodness' depends a lot on its relevance. I'm not saying that you shouldn't read them, but rather that you should consider their relevance when you make your judgment call.
- levesque 8y ago
  Then I'll say this: I'm pretty sure Jurassic Park was bad science fiction when it came out too.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    But a very entertaining story though!

adamsea 8y ago

I think the parent's comment was more about the literary tastes of a teenager / young adult verses an adult / older person. That isn't to say your point isn't valid, just that it seems orthogonal to the parent's point.

Sangermaine 8y ago

Nonsense. We still read works from centuries or even millennia ago that continue to be lauded and enjoyed.

vinceguidry 8y ago
Not millenia. The oldest novel that we still read is The Tale of Genji, written in 1010, followed by Romance of the Three Kingdoms, followed by Don Quixote. That's three still-relevant novels from 1010 to 1605. There are assuredly dozens to hundreds of novels written in that time period. Three are still relevant today. Whereas many ancient Greek and Roman plays are still performed today, right alongside Shakespeare. The play is simply a more durable form of literature.
- kthejoker2 8y ago
  He said works, not novels? Odd choice of specificity on your part.
- Amezarak 8y ago
  Wikipedia describes Lucian's True Story as a novel written circa 200 AD. I had to read it in high school. I'm sure there are other examples. On other comments you describe Quixote as one of the first novels ever written, not just still read, which is definitely very, very far from the case. Don quixote itself cites legions of prior novels!
- defen 8y ago
  What about The Golden Ass?
- olavk 8y ago
  Apuleius' "Metamorphoses" is probably the oldest complete novel known. It is from the second century, so much older than the novels you mention. And it is still read - at least I read it a few years ago in translation and found it hilarious and fascinating.

Splines 8y ago

> Novels are written to satisfy the social milieu of the time in which it's written. Some of them are, some of them aren't. It's easier to see this with movies. Pop-culture references and characters using the latest technology are easy ways to make a movie more ephemeral. A character popping memes holding an iPhone X will not age well.

lsc 8y ago
>A character popping memes holding an iPhone X will not age well. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If you look at, say, William Gibson and how he talks about brands, especially in his early cyberpunk stuff, it's super dated but also super influential, and I think still good. I mean, looking at Gibsons older stuff? Japan is the future. But Gibsons newer stuff? China is the future. It's not so much a prediction but a statement of how society felt; in the '80s, it did feel like Japan had overtaken us, at least until their bubble burst. In the teens? it kind of feels like China is in that same position, and Gibson's work conveys that feeling perfectly. Gibson can be read as stories about fashion, and fashion is inherently dated. But reading old things about fashion can still be really interesting, even though it might require a little more knowledge of historical context.

musage 8y ago

Because a phrase like "society's moved on" is so empty it even makes pulp like Jurassic Park look deep in comparison.

robotresearcher 8y ago

If the book addresses human fundamentals instead of transient silliness, it can last forever. The Count of Monte Cristo (1844), Heart of Darkness (1899) and Jane Eyre (1847) are still relevant and enjoyable, for example.

vinceguidry 8y ago
I loved the Count of Monte Christo, and took pains to get an unabridged copy. I got through it, but if I'd had anything else to do at the time, I don't think I would have.
- robotresearcher 8y ago
  The impatient sci-fi fan can can substitute Alfred Bester's resetting in space. Much shorter and has some cool ideas about teleporting in addition to the revenge served cold. Lacks the lovely florid language of the original. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    Or try the Japanese anime version, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gankutsuou:_The_Count_of_Monte_Cristo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gankutsuou:_The_Count_of_Monte...