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I fundamentally agree with where you are going, but like another responder, I think that we have different understandings of the word "bravery." Hollywood's ide

I fundamentally agree with where you are going, but like another responder, I think that we have different understandings of the word "bravery." Hollywood's idea of "bravery" is really recklessness. And that is absolutely incompatible with cave diving, as it is with racing automobiles, fast and light alpine climbing, and other activities where training and judgment keep you alive. But as this is not a Hollywood movie, we can use the proper definition: > Courage (also called bravery or valour) is the choice and willingness > to confront agony, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. > Physical courage is bravery in the face of physical pain, hardship, > death or threat of death, while moral courage is the ability to act > rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal, > discouragement, or personal loss. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage Cave divers are absolutely courageous. And brave. They just aren't reckless. Or foolhardy. To borrow a phrase from mountaineering: "There are old cave divers. And bold cave divers. But no old and bold cave divers."

ljcn 8y ago
It seems to me that the "Hollywood bravery" you nicely describe really is bravery - Oxford Dictionaries says the word comes from French braverie or Italian braveria (boldness), based on Latin barbarus (c.f. barbarous). Alternatively it may be from bravo (wild, savage). Courage on the other hand comes from Old French corage, from Latin cor (heart). I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  It's true that the word comes from those roots, but the Oxford dictionary you cite says plainly that the definition of the word as it is used today is: > Courageous behaviour or character. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for no damn reason and it works out because he broke all the rules for no damn reason.
  - ljcn 8y ago
    I was agreeing with you. You wrote yourself that modern usage is synonymous, so I thought it would be interesting to look at the etymology too. For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery (bravo < Old Italian braido, brado (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same thing.

ljcn 8y ago

It seems to me that the "Hollywood bravery" you nicely describe really is bravery - Oxford Dictionaries says the word comes from French braverie or Italian braveria (boldness), based on Latin barbarus (c.f. barbarous). Alternatively it may be from bravo (wild, savage). Courage on the other hand comes from Old French corage, from Latin cor (heart). I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.

braythwayt 8y ago
It's true that the word comes from those roots, but the Oxford dictionary you cite says plainly that the definition of the word as it is used today is: > Courageous behaviour or character. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for no damn reason and it works out because he broke all the rules for no damn reason.
- ljcn 8y ago
  I was agreeing with you. You wrote yourself that modern usage is synonymous, so I thought it would be interesting to look at the etymology too. For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery (bravo < Old Italian braido, brado (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same thing.