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"None of them can swim" Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive

"None of them can swim" Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die. Whatever was their coach thinking?

sirn 8y ago
Locals can easily be careless about weather; if the monsoon season doesn't normally started at near the end of June, then I can see the conversation being "normally it doesn't rain around this time. It should still be fine to go in." I won't argue that the coach were being careless, though. Disclaimer: my mother is from the region (Mae Chan is only few kms away from the cave, which is in Mae Sai) and she wasn't surprised with the fact that they went in.
innocenat 8y ago
Since the cave is off-limit during rainy season (which typically shouldn't have begun yet), I'd guess that nobody know the cave will flood
fabricexpert 8y ago
Personally I think the coach should be commended for keeping all those boys safe and alive in such conditions. He couldn't have known the cave was going to flood, the signs say don't go in in between July and September - they entered in June. Without a strong leader this probably would have been a very different outcome already and they'd be dealing with retrieving corpses. I actually find comments like yours really grating. Blaming people for situations largely beyond their control is not productive or helpful, especially when ended with inflammatory questioning designed to provoke.
- geomark 8y ago
  Actually, it was irresponsible to take them on a cave tour this time of year because the rains often start in June, regardless of when the official start of rainy season is called. It's been like that as long as I've lived here, and there have been quite a few cases of cave tourists getting trapped during rainy season. So he did a good job of taking care of them once they were in trouble, but he should have not taken them in there in the first place.
  - Filligree 8y ago
    If the rains often start in June, why do the signs say July? There may be plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think blaming an inexperienced caver is very useful.
    - geomark 8y ago
      He lives in Thailand so he knows it often rains in June. He entered the cave only one week before the official start of rainy season. He took a rather large group of kids, not adults who could assess the risk themselves and decide whether or not to take the risk. I would say that adds up to being very irresponsible.
- SagelyGuru 8y ago
  I assume it was his decision to take all those children down there, so it was not beyond his control. Did he at least check the weather forecast? If my comment was designed to provoke, then it was to provoke people to think. We need to be able to think for ourselves sometimes. I actually find your comment somewhat unhelpful and grating. It is all very well everyone being a hero and never admitting to any wrong decisions but that is exactly the sort of attitude that leads to these situations and to their repetition. If nobody has done anything wrong, there is nothing to learn.
  - fabricexpert 8y ago
    Your idea of learning from this is to say "What was he thinking?", which in your context is is a rhetorical question. You're not trying to understand the thought process, instead you're making a statement to imply that the leader wasn't thinking about the group's safety when taking them into the cave and is negligent. This may or may not be true, or could be somewhere in between. But it specifically does not, and actually actively pushes against finding a solution that ensures this never happens again. By blaming someone for an error instead of the system that allowed, encouraged and enabled them to make that error you end up not solving anything, and the same problems crop up again, and again.
    - ahelwer 8y ago
      Blaming the system works in urban environments or corporate engineering processes. Vast swathes of the world have no "system" to protect you, except for maybe a sign if sufficiently many people have died from a hazard and somebody cared enough to make one (and overcame pushback about disturbing the environment). Examples of such environments include backcountry travel, rural living (even in developed countries), and most certainly caving.
danilocesar 8y ago
"learn to swim and dive right down there or die." It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense. I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone during a panic attack in open waters, in confined environment it might be even impossible. Divers in panic are also a hazard for other divers. That said, consider taking an untrained kid in an environment they have no experience with for three hours. My bet is that they will not make them dive. I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking about diving lessons only to buy time and keep them occupied and give them hope; Unless plan A (pump the water out) and plan B (wait until September ends) becomes a non-option (due to emergencies), they won't swim/dive they way out.
- SagelyGuru 8y ago
  You are right of course and that is why I said they will still be very lucky to get out alive. They don't even know how to swim and must be quite weak already. Somehow I do not see keeping them there till September, with water levels possibly rising further, as much of an option either.
  - Filligree 8y ago
    The water levels might not rise further, and there's also the drilling option. There's even a chance that the water will recede enough to walk out; the weather report for the next week or two has ~no rain. It's far too early to assume that only the most dangerous option is an option at all.
asah 8y ago
JFYI today's headline: Navy SEAL dies in the cave. Care to retract your comment?

sirn 8y ago

Locals can easily be careless about weather; if the monsoon season doesn't normally started at near the end of June, then I can see the conversation being "normally it doesn't rain around this time. It should still be fine to go in." I won't argue that the coach were being careless, though. Disclaimer: my mother is from the region (Mae Chan is only few kms away from the cave, which is in Mae Sai) and she wasn't surprised with the fact that they went in.

innocenat 8y ago

Since the cave is off-limit during rainy season (which typically shouldn't have begun yet), I'd guess that nobody know the cave will flood

fabricexpert 8y ago

Personally I think the coach should be commended for keeping all those boys safe and alive in such conditions. He couldn't have known the cave was going to flood, the signs say don't go in in between July and September - they entered in June. Without a strong leader this probably would have been a very different outcome already and they'd be dealing with retrieving corpses. I actually find comments like yours really grating. Blaming people for situations largely beyond their control is not productive or helpful, especially when ended with inflammatory questioning designed to provoke.

geomark 8y ago
Actually, it was irresponsible to take them on a cave tour this time of year because the rains often start in June, regardless of when the official start of rainy season is called. It's been like that as long as I've lived here, and there have been quite a few cases of cave tourists getting trapped during rainy season. So he did a good job of taking care of them once they were in trouble, but he should have not taken them in there in the first place.
- Filligree 8y ago
  If the rains often start in June, why do the signs say July? There may be plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think blaming an inexperienced caver is very useful.
  - geomark 8y ago
    He lives in Thailand so he knows it often rains in June. He entered the cave only one week before the official start of rainy season. He took a rather large group of kids, not adults who could assess the risk themselves and decide whether or not to take the risk. I would say that adds up to being very irresponsible.
SagelyGuru 8y ago
I assume it was his decision to take all those children down there, so it was not beyond his control. Did he at least check the weather forecast? If my comment was designed to provoke, then it was to provoke people to think. We need to be able to think for ourselves sometimes. I actually find your comment somewhat unhelpful and grating. It is all very well everyone being a hero and never admitting to any wrong decisions but that is exactly the sort of attitude that leads to these situations and to their repetition. If nobody has done anything wrong, there is nothing to learn.
- fabricexpert 8y ago
  Your idea of learning from this is to say "What was he thinking?", which in your context is is a rhetorical question. You're not trying to understand the thought process, instead you're making a statement to imply that the leader wasn't thinking about the group's safety when taking them into the cave and is negligent. This may or may not be true, or could be somewhere in between. But it specifically does not, and actually actively pushes against finding a solution that ensures this never happens again. By blaming someone for an error instead of the system that allowed, encouraged and enabled them to make that error you end up not solving anything, and the same problems crop up again, and again.
  - ahelwer 8y ago
    Blaming the system works in urban environments or corporate engineering processes. Vast swathes of the world have no "system" to protect you, except for maybe a sign if sufficiently many people have died from a hazard and somebody cared enough to make one (and overcame pushback about disturbing the environment). Examples of such environments include backcountry travel, rural living (even in developed countries), and most certainly caving.

danilocesar 8y ago

"learn to swim and dive right down there or die." It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense. I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone during a panic attack in open waters, in confined environment it might be even impossible. Divers in panic are also a hazard for other divers. That said, consider taking an untrained kid in an environment they have no experience with for three hours. My bet is that they will not make them dive. I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking about diving lessons only to buy time and keep them occupied and give them hope; Unless plan A (pump the water out) and plan B (wait until September ends) becomes a non-option (due to emergencies), they won't swim/dive they way out.

SagelyGuru 8y ago
You are right of course and that is why I said they will still be very lucky to get out alive. They don't even know how to swim and must be quite weak already. Somehow I do not see keeping them there till September, with water levels possibly rising further, as much of an option either.
- Filligree 8y ago
  The water levels might not rise further, and there's also the drilling option. There's even a chance that the water will recede enough to walk out; the weather report for the next week or two has ~no rain. It's far too early to assume that only the most dangerous option is an option at all.

asah 8y ago

JFYI today's headline: Navy SEAL dies in the cave. Care to retract your comment?