4 ms·

I wonder how prevalent the whole ageism thing is. It makes good articles because half the engineers are afraid of it, but how widespread is this? Could be just

by DenisM 8y ago

I wonder how prevalent the whole ageism thing is. It makes good articles because half the engineers are afraid of it, but how widespread is this? Could be just a dozen isolated cases that the media latches on?

drtr 8y ago
Prevalent. I'm applying for jobs. Hot market. Both I and my peers are finding it much harder than as fresh college grads. A lot of this is structural: Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc. interviews ask very easy big-O style algorithmic questions and prioritize speed and accuracy. A lot of us more experienced folk haven't done this in years. We can solve more complex, multifaceted questions, but those aren't asked. It's about speed with things from college. It's important we understand those, and we do, but that crisp sharpness is no longer there. I will beat someone younger on hard problems which also involve threading, distributed systems, customer requirements, memory hierarchies, code simplicity, testability, business requirements, math, etc. but those aren't the interviews. Even ML seem to be spot checks of trendy techniques rather than deeper questions about mathematical maturity.
- DenisM 8y ago
  If you spent 4 weeks drilling basic CS problems do you think you will pass the interview? When I look into them I feel like I can pick it back up quickly. On a tangent: which city are you looking in?
  - drtr 8y ago
    I am passing them now, after having gone through a few. I do still make stupid mistakes more than I would have in my youth. Four weeks drilling would definitely more than do it. I think the bigger problem is none of the other skills I have seem to even matter for Google/Amazon/Facebook hiring. I would rather practice those skills and find niche openings which value people like me than do prep for a broken process. Plus I have family, consulting, etc, so I don't want to just drill. I'm not desperate. I could be wrong (no offers yet, but just started on sites so don't expect any yet) but I think I have better options elsewhere. If I weren't actively looking, I wouldn't even consider those types of jobs, and this is the first time in my life actively looking. In other words, Google has no chance of poaching someone like me. I think the word for that is implicit bias or disparate impact. Boston area.
    - DenisM 8y ago
      Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. How do you and yours look for jobs? In other words, where would I need to advertise to have you find me and apply? Here I posted an ad for a principal engineer, and it drew zero responses [1]. What could I do differently to get attention of (someone like) you and your friends? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16055897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16055897
      - drtr 8y ago
        When I read a post like yours, it reads like $100k salary, boring system, small company, small total addressable market, so even if wildly successful, not much upside. Boring tech too: Basically a classic database system. My friends are mostly at Amazon, Google, or Facebook with incomes from $250k up to over $1 million. The others are at startups solving big hard problems with big dreams. If there is no particular complexity, I'd outsource to India, Ukraine, Pakistan, or similar. If there is, I'd describe the hard problem. The minimal qualifications aren't a draw either. I want to work with smart people. Microsoft stack reeks of low end employment. Midwest, rural, Deep South, etc. beats Seattle too. Lower cost of living draws many developers of the sort you want. Problem is a minimal living salary broke $200k in Boston, SF, NY, etc. You don't want a low end job.
        DenisM 8y ago
        That’s a lot of prejudice for someone who just a day earlier complained about prejudice. :))) Thanks for feedback!
    - jeffasinger 8y ago
      I'd be curious if you interviewed at the company I work for (DraftKings) or not yet. If you have, I'd be interested in any feedback you had on our process, and if you haven't, I'd be interested in why you hadn't considered the company. Either way, it's worth getting in touch. My personal email is in my profile.
scruffyherder 8y ago
Incredibly prevalent.
- DenisM 8y ago
  Anything to back that up? Stats? First-hand / second-hand experience?
  - Corrado 8y ago
    Several years ago, in my mid 40's, I was on the job hunt. I interviewed at several companies that seemed to love me and even flew me to the HQ for an interview (D.C., Utah, etc.) Most of the companies were the same; lots of young people sitting/standing at long tables in open offices. I didn't receive a single offer from any of them, with most of the replies being along the lines of "not a culture fit". I can't say for sure what that means but it sure sounds like ageism to me. Interestingly, I landed my current gig with only phone interviews. I didn't even see my co-workers until 2 months after I was hired and we all met at a central location for a 2 day "summit".
    - DenisM 8y ago
      I can easily imagine this happening. Makes me wonder what can society do about it? Google for example takes hiring decision away from interviewer - the committee receives interview feedback in written form and makes a decision based on that, not seeing the candidate. You do lose a few bits of information that what, but it takes like half the bias off the table (the other half is allowing the interviewers to ask more difficult questions and being more nit picky in grading answers).
sametmax 8y ago
Everywhere I go, people are begging for more, better devs. They cry that the market is dry, that the GAFAS bough all the best and that only fizz-buzz worth students remain. I doubt the whole industry would refuse to hire an expert based on age when they are so much desperate for one. But I'm young so I have to way to check this yet.

by DenisM 8y ago

drtr 8y ago

Prevalent. I'm applying for jobs. Hot market. Both I and my peers are finding it much harder than as fresh college grads. A lot of this is structural: Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc. interviews ask very easy big-O style algorithmic questions and prioritize speed and accuracy. A lot of us more experienced folk haven't done this in years. We can solve more complex, multifaceted questions, but those aren't asked. It's about speed with things from college. It's important we understand those, and we do, but that crisp sharpness is no longer there. I will beat someone younger on hard problems which also involve threading, distributed systems, customer requirements, memory hierarchies, code simplicity, testability, business requirements, math, etc. but those aren't the interviews. Even ML seem to be spot checks of trendy techniques rather than deeper questions about mathematical maturity.

DenisM 8y ago
If you spent 4 weeks drilling basic CS problems do you think you will pass the interview? When I look into them I feel like I can pick it back up quickly. On a tangent: which city are you looking in?
- drtr 8y ago
  I am passing them now, after having gone through a few. I do still make stupid mistakes more than I would have in my youth. Four weeks drilling would definitely more than do it. I think the bigger problem is none of the other skills I have seem to even matter for Google/Amazon/Facebook hiring. I would rather practice those skills and find niche openings which value people like me than do prep for a broken process. Plus I have family, consulting, etc, so I don't want to just drill. I'm not desperate. I could be wrong (no offers yet, but just started on sites so don't expect any yet) but I think I have better options elsewhere. If I weren't actively looking, I wouldn't even consider those types of jobs, and this is the first time in my life actively looking. In other words, Google has no chance of poaching someone like me. I think the word for that is implicit bias or disparate impact. Boston area.
  - DenisM 8y ago
    Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. How do you and yours look for jobs? In other words, where would I need to advertise to have you find me and apply? Here I posted an ad for a principal engineer, and it drew zero responses [1]. What could I do differently to get attention of (someone like) you and your friends? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16055897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16055897
    - drtr 8y ago
      When I read a post like yours, it reads like $100k salary, boring system, small company, small total addressable market, so even if wildly successful, not much upside. Boring tech too: Basically a classic database system. My friends are mostly at Amazon, Google, or Facebook with incomes from $250k up to over $1 million. The others are at startups solving big hard problems with big dreams. If there is no particular complexity, I'd outsource to India, Ukraine, Pakistan, or similar. If there is, I'd describe the hard problem. The minimal qualifications aren't a draw either. I want to work with smart people. Microsoft stack reeks of low end employment. Midwest, rural, Deep South, etc. beats Seattle too. Lower cost of living draws many developers of the sort you want. Problem is a minimal living salary broke $200k in Boston, SF, NY, etc. You don't want a low end job.
      - DenisM 8y ago
        That’s a lot of prejudice for someone who just a day earlier complained about prejudice. :))) Thanks for feedback!
  - jeffasinger 8y ago
    I'd be curious if you interviewed at the company I work for (DraftKings) or not yet. If you have, I'd be interested in any feedback you had on our process, and if you haven't, I'd be interested in why you hadn't considered the company. Either way, it's worth getting in touch. My personal email is in my profile.

scruffyherder 8y ago

Incredibly prevalent.

DenisM 8y ago
Anything to back that up? Stats? First-hand / second-hand experience?
- Corrado 8y ago
  Several years ago, in my mid 40's, I was on the job hunt. I interviewed at several companies that seemed to love me and even flew me to the HQ for an interview (D.C., Utah, etc.) Most of the companies were the same; lots of young people sitting/standing at long tables in open offices. I didn't receive a single offer from any of them, with most of the replies being along the lines of "not a culture fit". I can't say for sure what that means but it sure sounds like ageism to me. Interestingly, I landed my current gig with only phone interviews. I didn't even see my co-workers until 2 months after I was hired and we all met at a central location for a 2 day "summit".
  - DenisM 8y ago
    I can easily imagine this happening. Makes me wonder what can society do about it? Google for example takes hiring decision away from interviewer - the committee receives interview feedback in written form and makes a decision based on that, not seeing the candidate. You do lose a few bits of information that what, but it takes like half the bias off the table (the other half is allowing the interviewers to ask more difficult questions and being more nit picky in grading answers).

sametmax 8y ago

Everywhere I go, people are begging for more, better devs. They cry that the market is dry, that the GAFAS bough all the best and that only fizz-buzz worth students remain. I doubt the whole industry would refuse to hire an expert based on age when they are so much desperate for one. But I'm young so I have to way to check this yet.